car design thread

jm2 · Nov 4, 2021

tritone said: ↑

Did we ever get an answer? Did I miss it?
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Nope

energy88 · Nov 4, 2021

jm2 said: ↑

Nope
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Guess we'll never know? I was thinking possibly of a warmed-over Bentley with some type of Arabic logo on the grill.

jm2 · Nov 4, 2021

One of my former instructors in design school was Harry Bradley. He did the Dodge Deora in the mid '60's. Just saw this story posted on FB.
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330 4HL · Nov 4, 2021

tritone said: ↑

Sadly, the 2022 Audi A8 was presented today.......
View attachment 3229204
...a formerly elegant & refined design, now entering "overlife", and seriously in need of cosmetic dental work.
As an Audi enthusiast, I'm worried what these stylistic gaffe's mean for the rest of the line up....
Click to expand...

Fret not my friend, they are doing an up market version of the A8 called the Horsch; because we know how well the Maybach turned out for MB...

Tenney · Nov 5, 2021

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/rw09/icons-of-speed---style/lots/r184-1965-dodge-deora-concept-car/198700

bitzman · Nov 5, 2021

ONE MAN'S CRITIQUE OF THE NEW SL
https://**********.com/2021/11/design-critique-2022-mercedes-sl.html#comment-616756

energy88 · Nov 5, 2021

Anybody else notice this?

Why do most of the press photos seem to show a chrome "H" on the driver's side of the grill? Taken together, the last three (3) vertical chrome grill bars spell out "HI."

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jm2 · Nov 5, 2021

energy88 said: ↑

Anybody else notice this?

Why do most of the press photos seem to show a chrome "H" on the driver's side of the grill? Taken together, the last three (3) vertical chrome grill bars spell out "HI."

View attachment 3230653
Click to expand...

Probably one of the multitude of sensors in the grille.

330 4HL · Nov 5, 2021

energy88 said: ↑

Anybody else notice this?

Why do most of the press photos seem to show a chrome "H" on the driver's side of the grill? Taken together, the last three (3) vertical chrome grill bars spell out "HI."

View attachment 3230653
Click to expand...

Perhaps you need to get out more...

anunakki · Nov 5, 2021

jm2 said: ↑

One of the topics of today's designer lunch debate was the new Merc.
Any opinions from this group?
View attachment 3228513 View attachment 3228514 View attachment 3228515

And please don't say, they should have done the sketch.
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bitzman said: ↑

ONE MAN'S CRITIQUE OF THE NEW SL
https://**********.com/2021/11/design-critique-2022-mercedes-sl.html#comment-616756
Click to expand...

I like the new SL. The rear is quite pretty. The front is oddly aggressive in juxtaposition to the svelte rear, but i still like it a lot more than most of what Benz has done the past decade or so.

tritone · Nov 5, 2021

Re the A8 and the above Benz: I'm seeing ALL of the new cars growing these HUGE 'nostrils' at the lower outer edge of the front end......whassup wit dat?
Do the brakes now need so much more cooling than last year?
Or is it because joe sixpack and the missus now realize that 'look' is racy/hip groovy/powerful/or?

energy88 · Nov 6, 2021

Raymond Lowey designs a futuristic bus. Predecessor of the Grey Dog Scenicruiser.
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https://theoldmotor.com/?p=187567

Jeff Kennedy · Nov 6, 2021

Some more to understand how the Phantom did not come to fruition for Bill Mitchell.

In the Lamm & Holls book they mention that Kehrl hated Mitchell. It was Kehrl that plotted that it was Irv Ribycki as Mitchell's successor instead of Chuck Jordan, despite Jordan being Mitchell's choice. Kehrl was actually over Design at the time and intent on wringing out the long list of excesses of Mitchell with the next regime. A one-off retirement gift car would qualify as one of those excesses although it was a minute price to pay for what Mitchell's 20 year leadership had accomplished for all of GM.

jm2 said: ↑

Bill Mitchell's last car.
https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/retroautos/the-phantom-bill-mitchells-last-gift/?fbclid=IwAR2vrHdjyEuX52mQ_0FH8Vi1gw71zeOW_gwrCRWbXqJePMn_UM48L0t-8cY

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The Phantom: Bill Mitchell’s Last Gift.
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Retroautos
By Retroautos - 26 October 2021
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The stunning Phantom concept car was the last hurrah for General Motors (GM) design boss Bill Mitchell. It was to be a fully operable automobile and he commissioned it primarily as a retirement gift for himself.

These days, the long, black Phantom sits, brooding almost, at the Sloan Museum in Flint, Michigan. It is a fibreglass “push mobile”, on a Pontiac Grand Prix chassis. There’s no drive train and the interior is just a mock-up. So, what happened to Mitchell’s dream?

Retroautos has been given access to previously unpublished photos of the Phantom’s creation, thanks to the archivists at the GM Heritage Centre, Michigan.

View attachment 3226350
Various engines were considered for the Phantom, including a V16 comprising two linked V8s.
The story of the Phantom has become the stuff of automotive folklore.

In early 1976 Mitchell could see his GM mandated retirement looming ahead. He’d be 65 years old in July 1977 and gone from GM. He’d been at the company for 42 years. For 20 of those years, he had been the design supremo, only the second person to have held that role. Back then, more people had walked on the moon than led GM’s design efforts. In fact, that holds true even in the 21st century.

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Razor sharp fender tops honoured Mitchell’s 1963 Stingray.
The styling themes which Mitchell had championed ensured GM retained its styling and market leadership through the 1960s and into the 1970s. Iconic cars, large and small, emerged from the company’s design studios across the world. It is estimated that Mitchell influenced the shape of 75+ million vehicles during his tenure.

With Mitchell’s brilliance came a well-documented behavioural downside. He held strident opinions, including views about certain GM executives, which he would share in public. Peter Robinson captured the man in an astute summation in the January 2007 edition of Motor Trend:

“Bill Mitchell was profane, a bigot, often drank to excess, a womanizer and either loved or hated by his designers. But William L. Mitchell….was one of the great car designers, a dictatorial but inspiring leader, a genuinely funny man with a repertoire of tension-defusing one-liners, and, most important, an often visionary design sense.”

View attachment 3226352
Were the thin chrome lines on the bonnet a reflection of Vauxhall’s or Pontiac’s trademark flutes?
With the Phantom, Mitchell wanted a spectacular car that celebrated his achievements. It would be a car in which he could literally drive out of the main gates at the GM Technical Centre in triumph and into a well-earned retirement. And so, he issued orders to re-open his mythical Studio X.

View attachment 3226353
The pronounced fenders hark back to a time when a car body and fenders were separate.
Studio X had been set up by Mitchell in 1958 to allow him and a small group to work on special projects. Its location, in a converted filing room in the basement of the Technical Centre, ensured it was hidden from senior GM executives who might want to stop such projects. From its restricted confines came the 1959 Corvette Stingray Racer (which was the template for the 1963 Stingray), two Mako Shark concepts, Monza SS and GT, Chevrolet Astro I and the mini-Camaro.

View attachment 3226354
The clay model of the first Mako Shark being developed in the small and secret Studio X, in April 1961.
A young designer, Bill Davis, was given the task by Mitchell of converting his idea into a reality. What Michell had in mind was a luxury personal car which combined the “classic” shapes of the late 1920s and early 1930s—such as Delahaye, Cord, Duesenberg, Bugatti, Hispano-Suiza—with “Mitchell era” design themes. In other words, modern “retro”.

The classic shapes had long been cherished by Mitchell. He’d been fascinated by them when growing up in New York City. In 1987 he was interviewed by author C. Edson Armi for his book The Art of American Car Design and said:

“I was brought up on big cars. In New York, as a kid, the Isotta-Fraschinis and Hispano-Suizas with long hoods, were always my cars. Not long decks (boots)—I didn’t like the long deck….I’d walk down 57th Street and look at those big cars. Of course I was fortunate enough to have lived in that golden era….but now, they are all boxes.”

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View attachment 3226356
Growing up in New York City in the late 1920s and early 1930s, Mitchell would visit the auto salons to see the great cars of the era. They made a lasting impression. These photos were taken at the Nethercutt Museum in Los Angeles, CA. The Museum’s main display floor, which was built to resemble a New York City auto salon of the 1930s, showcases exceptional classic automobiles. The silver car is the famed “Twenty Grand” Duesenberg.
Images © Nethercutt Museum and Retroautos.
What Davis delivered was decidedly “retro” and certainly reflected Mitchell’s brief. Commented Holls and Lamm in their book A Century of Automotive Style:

“The Phantom represented that nostalgia Mitchell felt for the classics during those waning days of his vice presidency.”

The first full sized clay was a notchback and originally given the temporary label “Madam X”, in recognition of the Madam X V16 Cadillacs of the early 1930s. After Mitchell saw the full-sized clay, the notchback was replaced with a fastback roof line featuring a split rear window. It sat on wire spoke wheels and was painted silver.

View attachment 3226357
View attachment 3226358
Bill Davis’ first full size model of the Phantom, then called Madam X.
View attachment 3226359
The almost vertical rear window of the Phantom reflects cars of the classic era, and predicts a design theme used by GM, and others, in the late 1970s through to the 1990s.
A number of engine configurations were considered, with a V16 the most favoured.

To convert the car into an operational vehicle Mitchell needed one of the divisions to apply money and engineering skills to get it to a point where it could be presented to the GM Board for approval. Pontiac agreed to help.

View attachment 3226360
View attachment 3226361
The notchback roof line has been replaced with a fastback, including a split rear window, a Mitchell favourite.
The clay model was taken to the Pontiac studios where more work was done to refine the exterior shape, bumper bars and interior layout. The car was repainted black and re-named “Phantom”.

View attachment 3226362
View attachment 3226363
It is late 1976 and the Phantom is now located in a Pontiac styling studio, where a sign on the back wall draws attention to sketches for the 1980 Firebird.
A fibreglass body was constructed and fixed to a late 1960s Pontiac Grand Prix chassis. At this point there was no engine, drive train or working suspension. A mock up interior was created, barely visible through the dark Perspex windows. When the work was finished Mitchell posed for publicity photos with the car and a media release was written.

View attachment 3226364
View attachment 3226365
Big, thick bumper bars detract from the slinky shape, but give a clue as to how Mitchell intended to ensure that the operable Phantom would meet the new bumper bar regulations in the USA. In these photos the car has wire wheels, red pin striping and louvers in the front fenders. Note the dashboard is also displayed.
When the media release and photos landed on the desks of car magazine editors around the world what they saw was a striking blend of modern and “retro”. The body lines were curved and voluptuous. The surfaces were smooth and sheer. The bonnet was flamboyantly long and the boot exaggeratedly short. The front end, with its 1930’s “cat-walks” between the razor-sharp fenders and the centre of the bonnet, demanded your attention The rear end elegantly faded away. Minimal “jewellery” and trim adorned the car. Chrome was added only to emphasise a styling line. The scalloped wheel wells were painted red, a reminder of Pontiac’s Strato Star dream car from the 1955 Motorama. So far so good.

View attachment 3226366
View attachment 3226367
The cost of making this bespoke dashboard for the Phantom, and ensuring the electrics worked, would have been significant. The digital display was dropped in favour of gauges from GM’s parts bin, which can be seen in the previous photo. The red wheel wells came from the 1955 Motorama Pontiac Strato Star dream car.
But then a few problems started to emerge. In a publicly listed company such as GM, to develop a one off, fully operable metal bodied vehicle, that would then be given free to a retiring corporate vice-president, required significant financial, technical and people resources. Legal and regulatory approval hurdles would need to be overcome. Mitchell would not have had the authority to approve it for himself. More senior executives had that level of power. If he was to realise his vision, Mitchell needed others to advocate on his behalf, especially his boss, Howard Kehrl, who was ten years younger than Mitchell in 1977.

View attachment 3226368
View attachment 3226369
The final form of the Phantom. This is a clay model. Gone are the side louvers, big bumper bars, wire wheels and red pin stripes. The rear window is recessed to allow a brake light to be fitted across the top of the window.
And it was at this point in the story where we return to Holls and Lamm for their almost eye witness description of what happened next.

“Mitchell brought the Phantom to a big GM Board show at the Milford proving grounds. He intended to present it to the corporation’s directors as a surprise. Howard Kehrl, the victim of many a Mitchell insult, spotted the Phantom in the staging area and ordered it removed from the proving grounds forthwith. Mitchell was furious but this was a battle he could not win. His clout had ebbed away, he was too near retirement and no longer had anyone at the top to back him up.”

That was that. Mitchell retired soon after, without the Phantom. Howard Kerhl became the vice-chairman of GM.

View attachment 3226370
One of two very rare photos of GM’s high security workshop where fibreglass and metal prototypes are constructed. This process is very expensive. Some models cost upwards of half a million dollars in time, materials and labour.
At the end of a rarely seen film covering Mitchell’s career and successes, commissioned especially to be shown at his retirement cerebrations, he poses next to the Phantom while the voice over states:

“He leaves a legacy of car designs that express his flair and style, the most recent a two-passenger luxury automobile, the Phantom.”

Then, he gets into his 1959 Stingray Racer and the camera follows him as drives off around a curve and into the distance, leaving the Phantom behind.

View attachment 3226371
That the Phantom reached the fibreglass stage in its development indicates the high level of confidence Mitchell had that his retirement gift would be approved.
As with all concept cars who’s use-by date had expired, the Phantom went into storage awaiting an order for destruction. But a group of GM designers rescued it and a deal was struck to house it at the Sloan Museum in Flint, Michigan.

So, what’s the conclusion about the Phantom?

Stewart Reed, who is the Chair of the Transportation Design department at the Art Centre College of Design in Pasadena, California, from where almost 50% of the worlds’ automotive designers have graduated, put the Phantom into perspective for the book The Art and Colour of General Motors:

“The design represents the last gasp of the qualities that defined the legendary Mitchell era at GM.”

For me it certainly represents an amalgam of many of GM’s best known design themes in one car. It entertains with an outrageous individualism, sinister swagger and dark gothic glamour. Had it been sold as an Eldorado, Toronado or Rivera, I can imagine it stopping traffic and pedestrians as it cruised along the wide avenues and grand boulevards of the great cities of the world. On Woodward Avenue in Detroit, it would have created pandemonium.

The Phantom is Bill Mitchell!

Retroautos is written and published by David Burrell with passion and with pride. A special thanks to John Kyros at the GM Heritage Centre for his research.

View attachment 3226372
Bill Mitchell and the Phantom. There is no doubt it would have been a traffic stopper!
View attachment 3226373
Retroautos
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Edward 96GTS · Nov 6, 2021

and how did that turn out for GM?

Jeff Kennedy · Nov 6, 2021

Edward 96GTS said: ↑

and how did that turn out for GM?
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The demise of GM Design superiority. A lesson in how those who do not understand Design can, and did, squander a 50+ legacy of leadership.

When Jordan did finally ascend he was left with too little time to undo the decimation that Irv had wrought. Then when Jordan came to retirement the corporation again whiffed and did not agree to Jordan's recommendation (Jerry Palmer) and instead did Wayne Cherry.

Mitchell was so upset with Ribycki's time as VP Design that he had strict instructions that he was not to be invited to his funeral.

Edward 96GTS · Nov 6, 2021

corp politics….

Jeff Kennedy · Nov 6, 2021

Win your littl

Edward 96GTS said: ↑

corp politics….
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Win one's little corporate games but cost the company for the long term, But it is all OK because the culprits are is comfortably in retirement on their Florida waterfront property.

jm2 · Nov 7, 2021

REAF-1950 / РЭАФ-50 (1950). Soviet concept car.
Never seen this beauty
ribbed bodyside mldgs. Pre dating Mercedes & Pontiac
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tritone · Nov 7, 2021

Pale blue car might be a mock up / non runner? [Blanked out windows]?
Chrome was cheap in 1950's Russia? What do you suppose was their inspiration for that design aspect?
Like the readily accessible primer tank in the first pic.....

jm2 · Nov 7, 2021

tritone said: ↑

Pale blue car might be a mock up / non runner? [Blanked out windows]?
Chrome was cheap in 1950's Russia? What do you suppose was their inspiration for that design aspect?
Like the readily accessible primer tank in the first pic.....
Click to expand...

With the Soviets/Russkies it's hard to say. They were ahead of their time as far as the moldings, however.

energy88 · Nov 7, 2021

jm2 said: ↑

With the Soviets/Russkies it's hard to say. They were ahead of their time as far as the moldings, however.
Click to expand...

and rectangular headlights!

energy88 · Nov 7, 2021

Jeff Kennedy said: ↑

In the Lamm & Holls book they mention that Kehrl hated Mitchell. It was Kehrl that plotted that it was Irv Ribycki as Mitchell's successor instead of Chuck Jordan, despite Jordan being Mitchell's choice. Kehrl was actually over Design at the time and intent on wringing out the long list of excesses of Mitchell with the next regime. A one-off retirement gift car would qualify as one of those excesses although it was a minute price to pay for what Mitchell's 20 year leadership had accomplished for all of GM.
Click to expand...

Unlikely GM will ever again command 50+% (or even 40%) of the market thanks to this corporate infighting.

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jm2 · Nov 7, 2021

energy88 said: ↑

Unlikely GM will ever again command 50+% (or even 40%) of the market thanks to this corporate infighting.

View attachment 3231876
Click to expand...

There were rumors that when I started, the corporation went into decline. Cause & effect? Who can say?

330 4HL · Nov 8, 2021

Jeff Kennedy said: ↑

Win your littl

Win one's little corporate games but cost the company for the long term, But it is all OK because the culprits are is comfortably in retirement on their Florida waterfront property.
Click to expand...

Maybe not for long if the science boffins have their sums right...

tritone · Nov 9, 2021

Canoo, an interesting alternative design for a small/medium pickup truck. With some Rivian-esq utility design touches...
Not available before '23 (will they really ever get here? or just more "Fisker-ing"), and some concern for how this design will be able to pass frontal impact tests.....
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