car won't start!

Phil- can u be more specific? So are u doing your regular routine (ie trun on key- let fuel pumps go for 30 secs, pump it 3 x & then have pedal down 1/2 way & turn the key)...does it slowly turn over & not catch..how many times does it turn over? does it catch at all?

 

I had a similar problem 2yrs ago,went through all the usual problem solving,turns out that the battery was not giving sufficient power to turn it over quick enough to get it to fire and would go flat after several attempts.John Corbani to the rescue bless him,he said get the bigest battery that will fit,which I did and it has been a starter every time since I think its about 450 cranking amps,I also have a trickle charger hope your problem can be solved as easy as mine.

 

After cranking for a while you should get a nice smell of Gas, do you?

Can you test for a spark?

Is this a points ignition system?

 

First check if you are getting spark Pull one plug wire from a plug, put a phillips screwdriver into that wire socket and holding the HANDLE, position the shaft of the screwdriver about 1/4 to 1/8 of an inch near the block. Then have someone crank the engine you should see a spark jump to the engine (you will likely hear it also). Also be sure you have fuel in the tank, (just validate the gage)

 

What about sparks?

 

Easiest way to see if it's the battery is to jump it to another car, make sure that car is running when you do it to get full amps.

If you jump start it and it fires, then mystery solved.

If not, could be spark for sure. Also, you can check the spark a little safer by pulling the plug instead of using a screwdriver as a substitute. At least in my opinion.

If it's getting spark, but not firing, and you seem to be getting fuel, then we need to ping jselevan and tonyL here for some more expert advice, because any suggestion I'd make would just be a guess.

You don't have an ignition cut out switch by any chance? Anti theft device of any kind that would kill the spark but let the car crank?

 

Remove the Dinoplex and go straight points to coil to distributor cap. 90% likely electronic system failed (assuming Dinoplex).

Don't crank for more than a few seconds if you do not get spark/fuel ignition. Waste of energy (battery energy).

It's either fuel or spark, and more likely to be spark.

In the rear luggage area you can unplug the Dinoplex and plug directly into the coil/distributor, assuming this system has not been modified.

In addition, you might try simply pushing in the fail-safe button on the Dinoplex and bypass this electronic Frankenstein. Some of the units have it, others require that you unplug the cable and plug into the bypass system.

If any of this makes sense to you, let us know and we can provide more detail into what is going on back there. You will have to move the coil wire from one coil to the other !!!!!

Jim S.

 

My vote is the coil -

Pietro

 

Please don't jump start your car if you have the original Dinoplex connected, this can kill the electronics of your ignition when you remove the external battery. Switch to the emergenza circuit before connecting an external battery.

Phil,
it sounds like your ignition is not working, if you have the factory Dinoplex setup you can change to the emergenza mode as posted above. Can you tells what ignition setup you have (or post a photo?)

good luck,
Adrian

 

Phil, if the tests do not show a spark at plug, and coil output, then may be worth replacing the capacitor on the side of the distributor. Cheap and easy to do and often the cause of start failures on many cars.
Kevin

 

Agreed on the capacitor and it is a good time to check points gap and condition at this stage.
This from Corbani's Corner
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102137&highlight=points

 

Another vote for spark if you smell fuel. I had a Dinoplex burn up a coil wire just under the boot in the coil. It did start, but it ran a little funny.

 

Sounds like you have carbon strand wires installed, those tend to get brittle and break, and a CD unit such as the Dinoplex or MSD then happily eats up the carbon core.

 

All good suggestions, although some make result in chasing red herrings.

1) Unlikely that all 6 spark plug wires are bad, hence I would not spend time with this at the moment. Even if one or two were bad, sputtering and spark should be enough to at least have the engine cough. Sounds as though there is no spark....anywhere.

2) Capacitor can fail, but would have to fail as a short. Rather than replace the capacitor, simply remove it (electrically) from the points temporarily. Remove the wire from the stud outside the distributor. Don't waste time chasing down another until you have proven this is the culprit. If the engine starts with the capacitor disconnected, then get a new one.

3) Make sure that the coil wire has not come loose from the distributor cap or from the coil in the trunk.

4) Unplug the Dinoplex and plug in the coil directly to the distributor. Ask if this is not clear.

5) Make sure points have not slipped so that they are always closed (unlikely to have slipped so that they are always open. This can be tested with a 12-volt light probe and starter or manually turned engine. Unlikely scenario as sudden slippage of points without human intervention would be unexpected.

Jim S.

 

If your engine revs up to 6-7K without hesitation then there is no need to exchange the Dinoplex unit. If its broken then either it wont work at all, or your engine runs quite rough and wont rev over 3-5K RPM. You might also see an unusual amount of misfires even when not in overdrive.

You might want to check that you have the correct plugs in a good condition (i recommend NGK BP6ES for a Dinoplex setup) and that the wires are ok and not too old/deteriorated, if you experience starting problems. The ground connection of the Dinoplex and coil is also a good thing to check.

Best,
Adrian

 

Dear Adrian

Is it safe to jump start a Dino with later ignition packs, particularly Bosch equipment ?

Does it make any difference if you use a jump start pack, rather than another car ?

Mark Shannon

 

Mark, there is much "folk-lore" about frying Dinoplex or alternators when jumping from another car. I believe that this is poppycock. As one trained in electrical engineering (and several less useful professions), it makes no sense. Assuming that you connect the terminals correctly, the batteries in parallel simply look like a larger capacity battery to your electrical system. The alternator diodes are power diodes that will tolerate reverse voltage well above -20 volts, and the Dinoplex will as well. All automotive electronics is designed to tolerate 18 volts plus.

I don't deny that failures occur, but I suspect they are either coincidental, or failed prior to needing the jump (and thus the need to connect to another battery). I have jumped my Dinos many times over the years without incident.

I do welcome a more technical discussion of the failure mechanism with jumping if someone cares to offer it. We can all have our own opinion, but not our own facts. Sound physics is, to me, a great persuader.

Jim S.

 

The danger with jump starting is removing the jumper cable while the engine is still running. The sudden change in inductivity can put a voltage pulse with several hundred volts on the cars +12V wiring.

Most newer ignitions including the Bosch modules have an voltage spike protection build in, older CDI ignitions such as the Dinoplex or Bosch HKZ are very sensitive against voltage spikes which usually kills their inverter transistors. Around a quarter to a third of the Dinoplex units i get for repair have been damaged by jump starting, see the picture of the buffer capacitor below for what can happen to electronics parts.

My general recommendation would be to leave the jump start cables in place for about 10 minutes, then shut down both engines and only then remove the jump start cable. If the empty battery is still in a good condition, it should have enough charge to start the engine. Push starting is a much safer option though

If you have an original Dinoplex AEC101 or AEC103, then switch to the emergenza setup before jump starting the car and you should have no problems. Switch back when your own battery is charged and the ignition is switched off.

A jump start pack typically uses a smaller battery, so the effect would be the same.

Best,
Adrian
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Adrian - thanks for your input. You clearly have practical experience in diagnosing and repairing Dinoplex units. With a great deal of respect, I question the physics of "inductivity" and "several hundred volts", and killing the "inverter" transistors. These are terms that are not in the electrical engineering dictionary. Disconnecting one battery in parallel with another would not lead to such an event. The battery does not appear as an inductor. Yes, the voltage level may change (to a lower voltage) when the good battery is disconnected, and this could result in alternator field current rising, but the regulator should control this without difficulty. It is no different, either in magnitude or time-response, then turning on the lights....a rather sudden drop in voltage on a weak battery system, or cranking the starter.

One would have to monitor the system voltage on an oscilloscope to capture the event, but I am suspect. I emphasize that your experience is invaluable. I just cannot explain a blown capacitor on the procedure involved in jumping a dead battery.

Jim S.

 

Jim,

sorry if my description was confusing, i should have written resistance not inductance, it was a bit late yesterday as it seems.

When jump starting, the receivers car battery usually has a very low or no charge and a high resistance. So when you remove the jumper wires from the donors battery the alternator in the receivers car experiences a load dump, and depending on the alternators RPM and field state it will create a short transient peak with up to 100-200 volts and a duration of several milliseconds with a rise time of some nanoseconds. The regulator is not designed to handle such short transients and at the moment the transient peak happens it would be too late to change the field voltage anyway.

This transient spike usually blows out the buffer capacitor of the Dinoplex which is spec'd at 30V or 63V and is likely to destroy the base emitter path of the inverter circuit transistors, which then leaves you with a dead Dinoplex. Marelli did warn about removing the battery on the type labels, so they were aware of this issue.

If you leave both cars connected via the jumper wire for at least 10 minutes, the receivers battery should have at least gained a base charge which reduces the internal resistance and should make the removal of the jumper wires more safe, but the better approach is to first change to the Emergenza setup, which only consists of the breaker points and the coil.

Best,
Adrian