Carb' 328

Don't believe there were ever any carbureted 328's from the factory. Converted to carbs by a pervious owner? Or perhaps an engine swap? Seems peculiar.

 

Not stock, even the ad says it was "enhanced" with carbs. There was a place in Australia that made intakes that would fit Webers to the 3.2 block. Russ used those for his 3.2 Mondial ("Mongo") but that car has since been converted to modern EFI + turbo.

 

There was a place in Oz making weber intakes to fit QV/328/348 heads.....looks like you found a set.

 

Just read the description noting it was converted. That's an awful lot of money to ask for that car. Unrealistic, in my opinion.

 

A little high but so are cars in Australia. Its $145K in USD.

 

Nothing like turning back the clock and embracing failed Victorian era technology.

 

I would say Webers are more Georgian, having not arrived on the scene until George V.

 

Trivia: The 1969 Eagle Mk1 was the last Formula 1 car to use carbs. It was disqualified for driving too slow.

 

I love that. I'll have to remember it.

 

But the carburetor concept goes way back and it was replaced none too soon.

 

Jay Leno would love it. STEAM!

 

Agreed, carburetors are Victorian-era tech, but how exactly were they a failure?
- Dave

 

Yeah - they worked quite well on US muscle cars and dyno tests with refitting those engines with EFI generally don't show any max power improvements. In fact the opposite is fairly common. BUT FI is much more efficient throughout the full RPM range and provides far better emissions control. I would never convert a muscle car to EFI or an FI car to carbs !!

Then again, I have NO experience with Weber carbs at all so maybe if had the experience of RifleD with Webers on these engines, I might have a much more cynical view of carbs. Based on reading posts on this site, they do seem to be far more troublesome/require more attention than one (or two) four-barrel Holley(s)!

 

Terrible, backwards technology.

 

Who cares about max power? Max power can be delivered by aiming a correctly sized metal fuel line at a wide open intake manifold. Correct fuel metering over an entire range of RPM and load situations is the goal and carbs outlived being the best at that for nearly 50 years. They were only used because the major auto makers were too cheap to do otherwise. As for keeping a vintage muscle car stock thats a no brainer for many reasons. But modern cars that will leave the best of the muscle cars of their era for dead are quite common and do it with a smaller engine using less fuel. I just find it laughable when so many worship backwards technology only because their knowledge is set in stone to some bygone era that was not good when we lived it the first time. Webers are probably the best carbs produced. Not troublesome at all. If I do a complete tune on a Daytona, out of the valve adjustment, cam timing, service both dual point distributors and all 6 carbs out of all that the last thing that going to deteriorate and cause running trouble will be the carbs. Does not change the fact that on their best day they only delivered an approximation of the best fuel air mixture needed. They are ancient technology that worked OK at best and people should quit romanticizing about them because they are clueless how fuel injection works.

 

Like for like carb to efi it not going to add any hp and maybe actual cost some due to when and where the fuel evaporates. Where you see the difference is just as you say, across the range where the carb is transitioning for idle jet to main its nearly impossible to get the mixture right, so almost always a power dip. Bike carbs with slides and needles you can get sorted pretty well but its an "on any given day" thing and racing we carried a "weather station" to measure air density, humidity and temp then calculated the jetting for now that should match dyno tune day results. EFI, if its set right is right everyday

The big EFI win for me has always been streetable hp. With EFI you can use whatever size TB the dyno or flow bench says the engine wants and it make no difference at all what cam grind you have, you tune the engine and it runs and drives good. My engine has 54mm TBs (not 34mm or 36mm choked webers) on massively ported heads with pretty big cams and it purrs like a kitten and is purrfectly happy rolling along at 1500rpm in 5th gear or blasting up past 9k (when its not broken ), that is simply not possible with carbs. I'm not going to say you can't make the same hp with carbs because you probably can, but in doing so you have a race-only setup the works 5k-8k rpm if its a 308 build and is absolutely miserable to drive. I tell people figure about 15% more hp on a street build if they are going EFI, they can go up a couple sizes on the TBs and up to the next hotter cam option and still have an as or more streetable result.

None of this applies to CIS....CIS is the worst of both worlds. Its way more limiting on cam options and and way more restrictive to air flow while being supper complicated and hard to tune. Personally I would consider carbs on a QV or 328 an upgrade from CIS performance wise so I get it. I was involved in Russ's mondial build and I recall him being thrilled with the result. bump the compression, mild porting, pretty mild cam, webers and I'm remembering 300hp? Really nice street build....but i5t would have driven about the same and pumped out closer to 350hp as an EFI build but not what he wanted.

Edit - I still have a set of the intake valves sitting here identical to what went into Russ's build, 31.4mm and about the biggest that will fit on stock seats in QV/328 heads, they are on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/276840845952

 

"None of this applies to CIS....CIS is the worst of both worlds."

Interesting - I basically thought the same thing after working with it a bit after purchasing my 328 in '08. It is the only CIS-engined car I have owned and it struck me as a rather complicated way to fuel an engine! BUT I admit it works very well and I've had no trouble with it at all. My 328 can be given full throttle in top gear at 1500 RPM and pull away smoothly! No carbed-engined muscle car I ever owned could do that comfortably without serious protest. Heck most of them (due to mods) would barely IDLE at 1500 RPM!!!

 

Absolutely! My hate of CIS is a HP thing, not a drivability thing at all. CIS does an excellent job keeping the mixture at target and engines run very well when the mixture is correct. CIS injected cars run great, everyday with none of the fiddling webers require and are really close to even modern cars from a start and drive perspective. CIS has that going for it...heck, its has better general usability and many DIY EFI setups I've run across.

My comments were more hp related. The CIS system restricts hp in 2 ways. First it restricts air flow to the tune of a 10% hp loss. Second it limits the cam timing which further limits air flow. Just some quick math, the 348 is EFI and 3.4/3.0= 1.333, 1.333*235hp = 266hp, but a 348 is 300hp, so about a 13% difference while meeting even tighter emissions rules. That is the CIS price on, 13% stock. Its an emissions system not a performance system and performance, measured in hp not drivability, I can easily beat a CIS car with carbs or EFI so in my 1 trick brain that only ever thinks about hp CIS is the 1st thing I want to change.

Carbs...well its a love/hate relationship. I love the simplicity, I hate the quirks and compromises they force...but I can make a lot more hp with carbs than CIS so carbs win for me.....but I haven't built anything for myself with a carb on it since.....oh man....1996? no, 1998ish I did yxf1000 downdraft slide carbs on a 300hp 2.7l 911 engine was the last one I think? EFI since then.

 

I recall seeing the 328 as new on 80's dealer floor, reading the window sticker and thinking
"this Ferrari has more power and BETTER mpg than last one"
Both improved specs mama mia!