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Discussion in '360/430' started by Pransingh Horse, Oct 11, 2006.
Thanks Baasha...I thought some might appreciate ...glad you do!
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My experience comes with driving with, in, against and around 360CS and Porsches (gt2/GT3). So specifically to the 430, given the few that are driven with much regularity let alone see the track, the sample size is small. I will address a few of your points with my own...
1) Who or what drove a 430 for 350 laps around Fiorano? Was this your Xbox360, a Ferrari race team, a factory sponsor team or just Ferrari marketing? If it's ANY of these, it is of little consequence, as the brake rotors are marketed to last the life of the car, with thousands of heat cycles. 99% of the cars with CCB's will never see 10 laps of a track, let alone 350. Talk to me when you have three years of solid track time on your supposed "lifetime" brake rotors...
Re your comment "Wrong again. At least in re Ferrari of San Francisco and RT Gran Turismo. As for Ferrai NA .... i'm in regular touch w/tech support because I track my F430 regularly. No warranty issues there either. Perhaps you wandered over here from the Porsche forum (inside joke, PDX area Porsche owners will know what I mean <chuckle>). Unlike some marques, Ferrari encourage us to track our cars (of course were NOT talking about racing here)."
I didn't make a blanket statement that Ferrari would deny warranty claims for track use, I made the comment that Ferrari will not replace your "lifetime" CCB rotors if you track heavily and they fail. See answer one... talk to me in three years when you have three heavy years of track time on your car and your rotors flake...
While I don't want to get into a marquee battle, your fooling yourself to suggest that Ferrari NA encourages heavy trackig. Maybe at the 3/5 times a year Ferrari sponsored events, but I don't seem to remember the Ferrari pushing their owners to hit the track 10/12 times a year.
Re BMW. Once again, you seem to have a special relationship with your BMW dealer, like your Ferrari dealer. But who cares... Last time I checked, BMW didn't offer CCB brakes on the M3. $1,000 vs. $18K for new rotors is a bloody big difference.
And finally my absolute favorite bit that just sent me rolling on the floor.... "bear in mind that Porsche CCBs are a costly option and not (IMHO, from specs and a recent visual inspection of GT3 @PIR) as high performance as the Ferrari system. "
Visual inspection? You could tell from visual inspection of the rotors and calipers that they are not as high performance? Do tell, this is amazing. FWIW, Brembo, the company that builds the CCB brakes for Ferrari had a hand in the design of the Porsche CCB system.
I think he means they are better based on the fact that the PCCB brakes are 13.6" diameter 6 pistons, and the Ferrari CCB are like 15.1" if I'm not mistaking. Either way the Ferrari Brakes are definitly a good bit larger which in most cases means they are better.
If you go to a track and are next to a PCCB car, you can easily pass in a back striaght braking zone if you are good enough.
Geez, 2nd time quoting this article on F-chat in 2 days.
http://www.2005fordgt.com/1.pdf#search=%22stradale%20exhaust%20db%22 (pdf file)
Shows same braking 70-0 distances for CS and GT2 with CCM brakes.
Ferrari marketing. Please see Ferrari's website, dealer brochures, etc.
I'm still waiting for cites in re "premature failure." TIA again.
I agree that MFG claims should be carefully examined. WTS: Your opinion is respected but I disagree. Written claims (ie, ads) may be used to impeach an MFG if denied warranty fulfillment.
As a CCB owner i'd love to see that!
Cites please. I've researched this topic extensively ... Ferrari make no such claim TTBOMK.
Ya gotta be kiddin! Thousands of heat cycles? Let's do the math: 4 heat cycles per typical HPDE. 12 HPDEs per year. Divided into the lowest def of "thousands" (ie; 2000 cycles). That's 41+ years. Ludicrous!
<chuckle> "Pardon me ma'am .... you're ignorance is showing."
I repeat .... cites please.
Is there a point cleverly concealed here? <chuckle>
As the late, great Enzo supposedly said: "Being a Ferrari owner doesn't mean you're a Ferrari driver."
I have a long way to go before I can claim the latter. But i'm working on it. ;-)
1) You're the one claiming "lifetime." Please talk to me when you can point to Ferrari's written claims to that effect.
2) I'm making NO claims for longevity or lack thereof. I'm simply pointing out YOUR failures to provide cogent argument.
1) Not quite .... this is the first post in this thread where you refer to "lifetime rotors."
2) I'm waiting for you to provide some kind of supporting data. Not just in re your assertions in re "lifetime rotors." But also in support of your other opinions.
If they do .... I shall certainly make it known. And if they were to last more than a year of heavy track use i'll gladly pay for a complete R&R. LOL. Gladly!
Now, your "three years" of heavy track usage comments puzzle me. Here's why:
1) Why three years? Not four? Or two? Is that another opinion pulled from thin air, or due to bias, heresay and/or simply ignorance (nothing wrong w/ignorance, it's NOT an insult .... cool?)?
2) Again I fear bias and ignorance are clouding your ops. Ferrari claimed 350 laps at Fiorano.
During an average HPDE @PIR (not a direct comparison but good enuff for our purposes i think) an Advanced level driver should easily do 40 laps. Do the math.
OK, i'll do it for you .... less than one year and you've exceeded the 350 lap figure (i've had the car since 9/8/06 and I already have 3 track days on it, w/2 more signed up).
Clarification: Any RKI should agree that heavy track use means operating the brakes (in re CCBS) at 9-10/ths. Lap after lap. And IMHO (as an RKI) 12 or so HPDEs per year is not unheard of for a track junkie (guilty as charged <chuckle>).
Conclusion: You still need to do a bit more research.
Gosh, neither do I. I was just kidding around w/the Porsche crew (as i often do when i attend/work their events) but I did notice that Porsche's system is mentioned often in these CCB related discussions. Plus i've noted some of your ops seem to apply to oft heard comments in re Porsche CCBs.
I made no such claim. I do think that (based on Ferrari's written and taped ads) that Ferrari, in general, encourage us to drive the cars as "Enzo would have driven them." But that's strictly IMHO.
I didn't say nor imply that they did. In fact I made it clear that heavy track usage would cost ya (i remind you .... 350 laps).
Nope .... the opposite's true. BTW; I wouldn't own a BMW if I was given one as a gift. But that's OT and a looong story. Google Ronin and BMW M3 for a few laughs.
Wrong again. <sigh> How do you come by your strongly state ops? I don't often meet an individual so far off the mark in almost every way. Minboggling!
Finally a GOOD point (albeit innacurately stated).
Unfortunately you opened the door to discussion of how other MFGs handle similar claims. So I gave you a verifiable, first hand, account in re BMW. Among other relevant info.
Yes. And "IMHO." And "specs." Methinks you conveniently forgot those two points. <big G>
As stated above. But i'll rephrase for ya: From Porsches written specs and a visual confirmation of said specs, as an RKI (instructor class) and having driven against Paul Goody(sp?) in the GT3 in question (who is an outstanding driver and a neat guy to chat with) @ PIR ...
... IMHO: You get what you pay for.
Further clarification: The GT3 is an amazing car and the Porsche PCCBs appear adequate for the purpose.
You're easily amazed. I've found that those who are easily amazed are often ignorant. ;-)
Seriously .... it's become painfully obvious that you pulled some ops from your nether regions and now seem upset that I questioned you.
Relax .... it's just the Net. <chuckle> Simply admit that your ops are based on your own personal prejudices and have no factual underpinnings then we can move on.
BTW: You're certainly entitled to voice opinions pulled out of thin air. I don't have a prob w/that so long as it's clearly stated.
As you wrote above, while trying and failing to show that my experience was not relevant to this discussion .... "who cares?" The Porsche system's cheaper? The specs are different. Among other diffs.
1)Thx ttgansta. But I meant more than that. I wanted to point out that different specs, etc, would account for different pricing (of course that's simplistic which is why i added "IMHO"). As for passing .... in re HPDEs it's a non issue. We're not allowed to pass in the braking zones. But your point that CCBs, in general, out perform steel/iron has factual basis.
2) Motion, you're also correct in re braking distances but I must point out that some folks are not as knowledgeable (not directed at you ttgansta) and think that big brake kits and/or CCBs will decrease stopping distances. Not necessarily so. I repeat; brakes don't stop ya .... tires do!
Finally <phew> .... There are two main benefits to CCBs (from my POV):
A) Consistent braking. Lap after lap. "Priceless!"
B) Longer life under brutal conditions. Means fewer trips to the dealer for me (@450 miles per trip, minimum).
As for big brake kits: Again they're not for decreased stopping distances but (primarily) for lower operating temps and longer life than OEM.
IMHO, (and i've seen it personally) overly large brake systems will INCREASE stoppping distances. Specially when coupled with "race" type pads. It's all about balance.
Now now children - please calm it down.
The 12 F430's that were used in this summer's courses in Mont Tremblant should be coming up for sale or auction soon. All of them had the carbon ceramic brakes. It would be interesting to know how those the rotors held up after so much track time.
Please keep us informed. TIA.
I attended session 11 out of 12 and at that time the cars had around 2,000 miles of track time on them. The pads had been replaced once midway through the season and the techies told us that the rotors were in excellent condition but that they were slated to be replaced before Ferrari put the cars onto the market. All of the cars I drove at the Driving Experience had excellent brakes, and it was especially noticeable in the slalom and braking exercise sessions where the cars were subjected to constant very hard braking from speeds in the 90 -100MPH range to a dead stop.
I show you exactly how we fixed the notorious squeal when I was a tech at Lamborghini Beverly Hills, and what i continue to do at my shop in Beverly Hills. You can do it yourself easily with an empty stretch of highway. I also explain why this happens and the unspoken danger low heat cycles cause on the rotors. Surprise! they aren't lifetime rotors!!!
Where can I get this tool..through Brembo? This would be a very good device to have considering How many exotics now come standard with CC rotors. This was very informative. I have never liked how vague the testing/measuring was for these. Now it seems clear.
A 458 rotor is 10k now (here in Canada anyway) kinda hard to sell 40k in rotors without hard proof they are about to fail.
This is Tom's contact. He is the sales rep for Proceq for the US market. The Carboteq is the tool name. Also Audi part number VAS 6813
Tell him Micah sent you.
Porsche uses the same tool for PCCBs and it costs around $10K online.
Snap on sells it retail for $7600. Again, if you message Tom, you can get a better price
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Much better deal, but still expensive except for pros.
Still expensive for us too.