Carbon Ceramic Brakes (CCB) - 2007 update

While I don't have any experience with the carbon/ceramics in a Ferrari, I have them on my 2005 Porsche Carrera Sport, and absolutely LOVE them! I dare say, one of my favorite things about the car. I actually don't think they decrease stopping distance much, but they are rock solid. They have a great feel, they NEVER fade, never shake... basically they never do any of the things that I don't like brakes to do. The reduction in unsprung weight is noticeable in the handling as well. The car feels more "tossable" vs. others I've driven without the CCB's. Net, now that I've had them, I don't want to go without them.

 

I have them on my F430. In short they are great, but unless the CC brakes are warm, they will not provide ideal performance.

 

I have an F430 delivering in March and have been firmly told that Carbon Ceramic Matrix brakes are a mandatory option, which I have accepted. The dealer assures me the discs will last the life of the car, more or less, with none of the warping issues inherent in steel brakes. I'll believe it all when I experience them.

 

That is all true........and welcome to F-Chat.

 

The disc will last the life time of the car? Are you sure?

 

Got "em,

Like 'em!

 

the discs last an exceptionally long time, and the street pads make almost no dust. I have gotten to beat on a couple of sets of ceramic brakes, including 430 and Enzo. I have to say, in the context of the Enzo, it becomes clear that the car is definitely a lot more capable as a result of having them. On the heavier cars, the lack of fade is pretty unbelievable. My favorite heavy car to drive with those brakes is the 996 or 997 turbo. After repeated (4 in a row) threshold braking from 150mph to 30MPH, there is no indication of fade. this in summer louisiana weather!

i think these things got a bad rep early on because there were some technical issues which had to be massaged out as the product made a transition from the world of racing onto the street, and all of the compromises which are associated with road cars. things are much better these days. which means that soon, they'll be less costly as well

 

Ferrari doesn't give you a choice with the engine. Why should they give you a choice in brakes! Ferrari never should of offered a choice. A car like this deserves CCB. On the track vs. a F430 with steel rotors, the stopping power is noticeable. I've had passengers go on back to back laps to compare the brakes and they had the same opinion. So far, with two seasons of driving and a decent amount of track time, the pads were measured at 80%. The tires on the other hand didn't fare so well. You will go through more tires than pads.

 

in terms of stopping distance, absolutely just because of the larger swept area and multi piston calipers. They warm up farely quickly and have a very consistent feel to it. I've had CCB's on both my CS and 430 and I would not get a ferrari without it. From what I here from my dealer also, it's no longer a choice as they will be standard.

 

One thing I really hate about these brakes is that in everyday road use, they really grab early. it is very hard to ease into a stop. Rather, you are most likely heady toward a very abrupt stop, which gets very tiresome driving the car. Every passenger has noticed it. Not sure what the fix is but I have been told by the dealer that it is the number one complaint of the 430. My 612 had the same issue. Ferrari has no fix as of yet. I do like no brake dust.

 

+1

Since next year all Ferraris will have CC brakes as standart equipment. And price of CC brakes is added to the basic price of the car. Plus there is 3% price increase in Europe. How much is price increase in US?

 

+1

101% in agreement.

 

Will the 612 also have CCBs standard in 2008?

 

I drive on clubsport events, trackdays and such since over 10 years with Porsche and just ordered a 997 GT3 RS for that, so my subject was: CCB or conventional steel discs? Since the ceramic brake came out there were lots of discussions and I talked to a lot of people recently. I know that most people driving on the track refit their CCB brakes to steel discs because they had major problems.

For the curious of you the quintessential conclusion first: I ordered steel discs.

Here is why: the CCB system of Porsche, Ferrari and anybody else is the same. It's not a racebred carbon brake like in F1, which is completely baked out of many layers of carbon over the duration of some weeks, but it's mainly a carbon/ceramic mesh with a 0,5 mm usable layer sticked on top of it. People mostly mix up these two types unless explained to them (I had the same problem...).

On the track the CCB is very temperature sensitive and get's much hotter than steel discs (they say), if you don't warm it up or cool it down (!) appropriately it could loosen the top layer of the disc and with that the disc is finished (and 3.600 Euro too). This actually happend a couple of times to even people I know personally. If you do the same to steel discs, you can still twist them off or replace them for 350 Euro. By the way: the Carrera Cup still uses the steel discs too...

When ordering the sales guy tried to convince me of the CCB and the weight saving was tempting me too. But then boss of the Porsche Zentrum came along, whom I know personally, and said something like this: "You can't compare driving on the track like Mr. Wurzer does to driving on the street. We want to have a satisfied customer, I don't want him to take the CCB". And he told us some other clients' horror stories - convinced????

However, this does not really affect street performance. In this case the CCB could be effective and actually pretty good. But that I don't know...

Best regards from Munich, Germany,

Martin

 

It is your money and choice. However many issues regarding ceramics are over blown. If you are driving on the track like you imply, then ceramics are not the problem, it is the RS (or 430)... you need a Cup (or Challenge) Car to provide the level of performance that you indicate you are capable of extracting.

Now maybe, just maybe, the ceramcs with their better stopping power might increase your speeds to take you over the edge (that is a problem to think about), since you'll be braking later, and that can begin a series of nasty events beginning with wrong turn in etc!

It is amazing how we sometimes hang on the words of Dealers or salesmen (or posters) who haven't ever been on a track.

With my money and my choice on both the RS and the 430 I chose the ceramics, against the advice of the Dealers, and I am happy. They have since become "must have" (and recommended) options (supported by increased sales values). The Dealers have since changed their minds and now recommend the ceramics. I know some that bought them without ceramics quickly dumped them to get cars with ceramics.

Mere mortals, who enjoy performance and drive properly (warm up, cool down, etc), as opposed to those who try to pretend their street car is a Formula car will get a great deal of pleasure and benefit out of the ceramics.

I hope you revisit your decision (race car?), or go to a PSDS/Pilota program and try their cars with and without ceramics on the track and you will see for yourself.

 

The major advantage of CC brakes is the significant reduction in unsprung weight. This is an advantage on the track but especially on the road making the car more comfortable and smooth and safe to drive. They should be on all cars worldwide. I especially like the lack of brake dust, essentially none, my wheels stay clean.

aehaas

 

The absence of brake dust must be the ultimate luxury argument, especially considering how often these cars get washed and detailed.
To me, 10x premium on what remains consumables is a big price to pay for unsprung weight and some gain in brake fade.
It's difficult to sort out horror anecdotes from the past (360CS, 996 series) from present technology improvements, but for my wallet, the risk is not worth the benefits.

Ferrari forcing the option on all 430s and 599s should be taken as a vote of confidence, but in the context of a relentless quest for higher ASPs, I'll take this argument into consideration when Porsche makes the same move on 911s.

 

I was doing something like 30 000 km with two stradale, and also 50 000 km with a 575, 25 000 km with a 550, 25 000 km with an F40.... CCB on a light car is more than usefull, it's another story on an heavy car. So I never, not yet, drove a 599, I will see and I should be interrested to get a feed back from somebody having such experience. Scuderia without CCB? get a challenge, with slicks tyres! I finally prefer CCB on my car. Regards.

 

Hi Colm,

I really had a hard decision with the steel/ceramics subject. I didn't really care about the price, I would have taken it if I would have thought it's the right decision. But I had the impression after a lot of calls that there will be more problems with track use than benefits.

Regards,

Martin

 

My '07 F430 F1 Berlinetta should arrive this week (yes, pics will be posted). The car comes from the Ferrari Experience at Mont Tremblant. It is kitted with CCBs. I asked the dealer (Boardwalk) to put the diagnostic computer on the car to determine what level of wear on the rotors had occurred from 3,900 miles at the Experience. Answer = 24%. While the Experience is certainly not a 10/10ths session, it probably is more intense than what the average owner would put on their car in 3,900 miles. I'm not sure what calculation might be done to project a mileage life going forward but I was comforted by the data I have reported.
Ciao

 

True - wasn't a 10/10, but those cars were driven hard (at least my group did).

 

So, when Ferrari says that the rotors will last the life of the car, what do they mean by the "life of the car?"

In Ferrari world, that can mean several different things. Most Ferraris don't see 5000 miles/year. At that rate, they ought to last quite a while.

On a daily driven/regularly tracked Ferrari, however, almost every part of the car wears faster.

OTOH, I liked what was said earlier about the steel brakes. I have heard that many racers still prefer them to CCBs.

 

Under normal road use.