Carbon Fiber option question on 599

Check with FNA through your dealer, but I would assume that the "full carbon" package already includes the carbon/LED wheel (hence the computer insisting that you don't pay for it twice!).

 

Why are you doing it on a computer? Who are you ordering the car through? I would think you tell your sales guy what you want and let him figure out how to put it into the paperwork. When we picked out everything for the QP, we were in the dealership with the books and samples of leather and wood spread all over the table. We picked out everything and the salesmen was writing it all down.

 

What color is that leather? I know its beige but does anyone know the color code and the official name?

thanks,

 

"But when I went to order the full carbon package the computer shot it back out saying that the LED steering wheel and the full carbon option conflict."

Have you tried selecting the "interior to sketch" option and then requesting exactly what you want? That might solve the stubborn computer issue. And, I assume, Ferrari will build the car as you want it, perhaps with the usual extra charge. It simply doesn't make sense to me that the LED wheel and full carbon fiber conflict.

Theer are seveeral beige colors, I believe crema, naturale and cuio (sp?). You absolutely need to see samples.

 

Well I can't blame you for wanting it to be perfect.

Sound's like it will be a beautiful car. Enjoy it in good health.

 

FWIW on my options list shows the upper carbon fiber option a bottom carbon fiber option, and then the steeringwheel/controls/paddles as a special option. As in you would want to slecet all three of those options

 

Good idea doing your homework; dealers are notorious for misunderstanding new cars (to their credit, they dont sell that many cars to become familiar with every option). But the fact remains most 575s were ordered without FHP (mistake), and Stradale buyers were talked out of a stripe (mistake). Point is, do your homework, its your car in the end. If it were me, I'd fly to Maranello. In any case, don't leave it all up to the dealer.

 

At least in terms of HK prices, the Ferrari carbon is a lot cheaper than the Porsche carbon options. Someone must have the US list prices and can put numbers to the above. Carbon is not actually all that expensive anymore as a commodity

 

It's as expensive as it has been in 20 years, and the cost of the raw material has little to do with small cosmetic components like these.

 

Personally I would order every piece of carbon that is available.

Dealer
"Mike-Would you like some more crack [uh], I mean carbon fiber?"

Mike
"OK"

 

With respect to Cost, I think its not true to say its as expensive as its been for 20 years.

IMO, the cost is partially an accounting thing. The cost of the special equipment to make CF parts is amortized over some period of years and hence forth will be written off in time.

Its like Plasma TVs, the factory to build them was expensive, but once paid off the unit construction price is much less than a CRT.

I'm sure the unit construction price has probably changed as more people have experience and entered the market, but the price is now probably just that part and not the equipment.

Bakelite and plastics were once expensive as well...

 

Right on. Now CF car parts are easily and cheaply fabricated. Production in China is amazing quality and inexpensive. I shunted my Formula Renault a few days ago and my CF crash box is easy and cheap to repair. Even Honda touring cars have CF door panels. CF expertise is quite wide spread. When the McLaren F1, XJ220, F40, etc came out CF was for space ships. Now no big deal

 

Carbon fiber has been used in motorsports and other non aerospace applications for many years - since the 80's. Its use has been growing in recent years, both in traditional aerospace and in commercial applications like the one discussed here. This rise in demand, with little increase in production has led to a recent (last 1 1/2 years or so) shortage of material, and prices have soared. Many smaller fabricators have not been able to get any material, with Big aerospace (Boeing with the new Dreamliner and Airbus with the A380) and other large defense, industrial, and commercial users buying up most all available capacity. What is left does not cover the demand and sells for a premium when it does become available.

Why don't the fiber producers simply make more? They will, but they won't recklessly increase production like they did in the mid to late 90's, when the last shortage occurred. The producers got hurt then and are not eager to repeat the same mistake again.

I won't even get into Chinese composite goods, other than to say much of it is made of inferior quality materials, like fiberglass dyed black to look like carbon fiber.

 

I reckon it'd play an important part in the near future in reducing weight in most
road cars. They're all too heavy and could really use lighter materials such as
this. Oil isn't gonna be around for much longer.

 

There are many efforts that are trying to make progress towards this. The major hurdle is the manufacturing process. You have to mold the material to a form and then be able to remove it (no undercut). You can use a flushable mold, but that can get to be expensive.

Something that you can look at is the Hypercar concept presented by the Rocky Mountain Institute. A cool thing to come out of the project recently was a new somewhat economical way to produce composite parts of somewhat simple design. They showcased a carbon fiber seat at the North American Internation Auto Show last January that was economical enough to be put in the typical small sedan (cobalts, pt cruisers, focus, etc.). So you might find composite seats in economy cars in the not so distant future.

Back to the manufacturing process (this if for continuously reinforcing fibers in a polymer matrix). There are a couple different ways of applying the resin matrix around the carbon fibers. The most basic way is simply brushing the resin over the fibers to workit in and around. The advantage is you can have the fibers already placed on/in the moldprior to applying the resin. The drawback is inconsistant and excessiveresin content, leading to a part that is heavier and weaker than what it could be. Another way is to go with pre-impregnated fibers (pre-preg). This is where a machine adds a precise amount of the resin to the fibers. The advantages are no excess resin which yield lighter and stronger parts. A third way is through vacuum infusion. This is where the fibers are laid on the mold and a vacuum bag is place over the material. The drawback are the storage of the material (has to be refridgerated to prevent the resin from starting to cure). There are ports in the vacuum bag that are connected to a resin source. The vacuum sucks resin through the fibers. The advantages are near-pre-preg quality product but the disadvantages are that is tricky to get proper placement of the ports for the resin and vacuum to get a good part.

Next, there are a few different methods of applying fibers to a mold. First there is plain-jane wrapping the material around the mold. This can be done using dry fabric or pre-preg. Pre-preg has the advantage of being able to be more efficient uni-directional fabric instead of the woven fabric most often associated with composites. Another way is filament winding. A machine winds threads of the fabric around a mandrel to form a part. You can't use pre-preg with the method. Relateed to filament winding is braiding where a loom braids a lot of fibers at once around a mandrel (this is similar to how clothing fabric is made). Again, you cann't use pre-preg for this. A pre-preg version of filament winding is tape laying. A machine rolls slim pre-impregnated tape over a mandrel (think of the packaging tape dispensors at the post office).

After the material is all laid out with the resin over it, you have to cure the resin. You can just leave the part out and it will cure in somewhere between a day and two weeks depending on the resin. However, motorsports (desired) and aerospace (required) applications use autoclaves, where the parts are subjected to high pressures and high temperature to produce high quality parts. The main purpose of this is to reduce the number of imperfections within the resin matrix. The drawback is the equipment and process is expensive and energy intensive. Pressure molding with a mandrel onto a mold is another. It requires a mandrel that forms to the shape of the mold.

This is just the basics of composite manufacturing. Some good examples of production composite cars are the Koenigsegg and McLaren/Mercedes SLR. Koenigsegg creates their tub off of a single mold. It was a compromise with the design where they were able to create it with no undercut. McLaren has developed an automated way of laying up their composite chassis.

Tim

 

From my understanding there are three new CF plants being buildt at the moment in China, just raw material producers i mean. Is this correct info I have or ? As a sidenote I can mention that the Sailingboat/SailRace industry is taking the CF shortage very hard.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there are 3 or more plants being built in china at the moment. I don't know what fiber types they would produce, maybe large tow commercial grade fibers for industrial/infrastructure applications?

Yes the sailing industry, which has enjoyed an abundance of below-cost fibers until recently, has been put in a bind. A lot of sporting goods manufacturers (I put boat builders in this category for the sake of this discussion) have had to stop or delay production of many products.

As far as commodity cars like hondas, toyotas, chevys, etc are concerned, if (when) carbon fiber composites become cheaper than metal or plastic parts to produce, we'll see more of them in everyday vehicles. Big automakers care about the bottom line, period. If that means using a composite part to replace a conventional assembly of parts (a primary advantage of composites), then great. If high oil prices make consumers want lighter cars and low weight becomes a marketing advantage, great too.

Regarding fabrication techniques, we primarily use the prepreg-autoclave system for our line of carbon fiber Ferrari parts. It is slow compared to the mass-production processes used by high-volume carmakers, and it is very labor, materials, and to an extent, energy - intensive. The results, though, set the benchmark by which all other fabrication methods are measured.

 

Interesting points on CF. Great to get some good input from experts. When I look at the green goo in my F40 and compare that with my CGT, what a difference.