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360 catalytic convertor options 04' Ferrari 360

Discussion in '360/430' started by Tarek307, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    Hi, so i've had my car a year put 10K miles on her, 2004 Modena 52K Miles Challenge race exhaust, no issues she's gone in for maintenance need to get brakes, rotors and some other wear & tear stuff done like ball joints etc..

    Also noticing white dust in Engine bay and it looks like Headers are needed so ordered the fabspeed with heat blankets. But the cats are also starting to disintegrate so need new cats while i'm at it..

    I was about to add the Fabspeed cats to the rest of the order from fabspeed but was wondering if there were any other options anyone would suggest, i don't want the car with test cats or no cats where it sounds ridiculous and would fail smog in CA - So are there any maybe less expensive companies with reliable cats? i see agency power and some others on ebay with cats that are $1000-$1500 for the pair..

    Anyone with direct experience with this plz advise. Thought about buying some good used condition OEM ones but thats risky because the OEM material is garbage obviously
     
  2. timwu12

    timwu12 Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2014
    541
    Houston, TX
    I have evoflow high flow cars and they’ve been great. I had them sent out to be wrapped in inconel to control the heat.

    White dust isn’t going to be the headers, that’s insulation from your muffler.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  3. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    Thanks- I didn't realize cats also needed to be heat wrapped, thought just the headers..

    we scoped them and definitely the headers and the cats both starting to show signs of disintegrating - so gotta do both. Better safe than sorry.
     
  4. timwu12

    timwu12 Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2014
    541
    Houston, TX
    The cats can get red hot, less so than the stock cats because you’re looking at high flow cats, but it’s extremely hot and it sandwiches your gearbox and sits right under your airbox and over your CV boots.

    I had my cats custom wrapped by ATP (http://www.atpwrap.com/home.html) which is closer to you so you could drive down to Irvine and save the shipping.

    I also have Fabspeed header blankets but haven’t put them on because I hear they disintegrate after a year so I’m probably going to sell them and when I find time to remove the headers, I’ll have those inconel wrapped by ATP as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  5. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,452
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    It's my experience that any cat converters that do not have two stages (small and main stage) will result in a CEL and will not pass smog in California unless you also mess with the software. That leaves just the factory cats to be trouble free.
     
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  6. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    many people have ways around clearing CEL and some don't even get it and all pass CA smog without disabling software, hopefully i'll be one of those.

    I've found a set called Evoflow i might try and they are here in CA.
     
  7. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,126
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    Technically the only catalytic converters that are smog legal in California are the stock Ferrari cats, and actually they work very well. I don't know where you got the idea that they are "obviously garbage". Actually most of the aftermarket cats are not very good and set cat efficiency faults.
    None of the aftermarket cats have the proper compliance numbers stamped into, so they will fail the visual inspection. You may get lucky and find a tester that doesn't look at the cats, but once you get a tester knows what he is doing, your car will be flagged for having non-compliant cats and you will have to replace them with new Ferrari cats.
    Yes I said new, as it is also illegal in California to sell used cats. Try and purchase used cats from any Ferrari salvage yard in California, and you will find that they cannot ship them to a buyer in California. You can try and purchase some on ebay from a private seller.

    How do you know that the original cats are starting to disintegrate?

    Brian Brown
    San Francisco Motorsports
     
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  8. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    so you are saying that the ferrari design of the headers and cats are a good design thats why so many failures occur with leaks in headers and debris in cats etc? I could care less about visual inspections and smog & all these technicalities, i'll worry about that if it happens and i know how to get it resolved- many people here have headers and highflow cats and pass smog - Its not like i really want to do all this, i was very happy with the car and it pulls amazing and has lots of power and sounds perfect with the challenge exhaust..but now this issue which is common has presented itself and i have to deal with it

    I know they are failing because 1 i'm getting the white dust, 2 hearing a faint ticking, 3 we bore scoped them and there was material in there and if it gets worse it could cause engine damage and thats not a risk i want to take, My neighbor has a 360 in the same shop rite now with an engine rebuild needed because those components failed and sucked the debris into the engine and his engine lost power and sounds like a sack of marbles
     
  9. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    for the main cats, I don't think OEM are garbage. It is actually one of the best bet.

     
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  10. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    Guys i've ordered the Evoflow cats- So the car will be getting Fabspeed headers, blankets and evoflow cats & possibly those 02 extender things IF i get a CEL..anyways i will keep the thread updated as the work goes on.

    I'm not "very upset" or blame Ferrari for a shoddy design, the car has 52K miles and "Its aaaaa Ferrrrrari" taking a significant hit here on the bill especially at the same time doing other items like brakes/rotors, coolant flush, oil change, motor mounts and suspension stuff..the bill is Huuuuuuuuuuuge...

    Just Thank God we noticed all this before any damage happened. I never got any CEL , car runs very strong, just the white powder and the slight ticking is what prompted Craig Calder at Fast Cars LTD to investigate further.

    Some Porsches has the issue with the IMS and i guess the 360 has an issue with this.

    Here are the cats i ordered.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,702
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Do as you want but Brian and Mitchell are right. The ONLY cats that are smog legal in CA are stock. Technically, since the headers include pre-cats they must be stock as well. They are also right that you may pass and be fine and that may happen several times. THEN, one day you will hit someone who checks for BAR numbers and your car will be flagged. Then you are headed down the rabbit hole and it will cost a ton of money.

    Also of note, the 25 year rule does not apply in CA so the problem doesn't go away over time. Now, maybe the rules change and CA has to revert to the US standard rules but I wouldn't hold my breath or make that my primary bet.
     
  12. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,126
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    I was not talking about the headers with the pre-cats integrated into the, they are a poor design and are destined for failure. I would recommend the installation of high quality headers (Tubi) and used of the stock catalytic converters. Besides being smog illegal, I have not found an aftermarket high flow catalytic converter that doesn't set a CEL due to poor function. So you must use rear O2 sensor extenders to keep the CEL off.

    You may be fine for some time, but smog tests/rules have gotten more strict over time and at some point you will get flagged by an eagle eyed smog inspector for non-compliant catalysts

    It happened to me this year. I have a 1986 Toyota pickup truck that I use for dump runs and picking up soil. It had an aftermarket cat on it that had no markings, but since it was installed more than 20 years ago, it was grandfathered in. My regular smog guy knew this and passed it without question. I changed jobs and sent the truck over to the shop next door to us that does our smogs. Their smog tech (some young idiot) did the whole test and then flagged the catalyst for being non-compliant during the test, even though it is clean out the tailpipe., without even talking to me about it. Since it was flagged I cold not take it to my regular smog guy to test it. I was stuck having to spend $300 on a new catalyst for a truck worth $1200 just because it did not have some numbers stamped on it, even though my old catalyst worked just fine.

    California hates cars and it is only going to get worse with time.

    Brian Brown
    San Francisco Motorsports
     
  13. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,126
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    #13 Motob, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    I am surprised that Evoflow is in California and is selling non-California compliant catalysts to someone in California. That is also against the law and they can get fined big time (tens of thousands of dollars). They are trying to get around the law by claiming that all of their parts are for off-road use only.

    Brian Brown
    San Francisco Motorsports
     
  14. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah

    Man are you the smog police or something? why don't you give it a break and let people be!!! geez..get the hell over it! i bought a set from another private owner, not the set off ebay, certainly & absolutely none of your business either way ... unbelievable.
     
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  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,452
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Tarek, that is a pretty poor attitude my friend. You ask a question and a well-meaning professional technician is giving you his informed opinion. This being an internet DIY board, the correct answer to your question and its ramifications are searchable for other future owners and DIY. This is not just about you. You are certainly free to do as you wish.

    Best wishes to you.
     
  16. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    #16 Tarek307, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    All these legalities and by the book 100% mean no one can change their stock headers or cats, and this was not my question- Many cars have these and pass smog just fine in CA, maybe this great tech can call every smog station and give them a warning to make sure they visually inspect the headers & cats on every ferrari to make sure they are 100% stock ..He said his opinion, finish, he doesn't need to keep going on & on.
     
  17. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2017
    827
    Melbourne Florida
    Full Name:
    KGC
    I for one appreciate Brian's "going on and on". I have read all the posts here with great interest. I for one want the pros here to let me in on ALL the ins and outs of any modification. There's a wealth of info here on this forum for those open minded enough to read, consider, and then of course, make your own decisions.
     
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  18. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,702
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    That would be why CA has the laws the way they do and why they have big fines associated with these laws. You may not like the laws as they are and you may not choose to follow them, those are your options/opinions. BUT, none of that changes the actual laws and Brian is spelling out the laws since he has to abide by them if he wants to keep his business operational. Others can make their choices but should do so with an understanding of the law, goals, risks, and consequences so documenting them here is a service to everyone.
     
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  19. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    Great we've already established that when you don't have stock headers/cats you can fail the visual smog inspection according the Fchat smog police - can we now move on from that now so anyone searching in the future can get the answer regarding using these cats if they are as good as fabspeed ones or not & how the sound & function with the fabspeed headers.
     
  20. AD170

    AD170 Karting

    Jul 18, 2014
    56
    I don't think you understand what people are saying. In California you either have to use OEM Cats or CARB certified Cats to pass the smog test. CARB certified Cats can be found on the CARB aftermarket catalytic converter website. That's what Smog shops use to certify the aftermarket Cats on the vehicle are correct. The process to certify is roughly 100,000$. I don't think an aftermarket catalytic converter manufacturer can make any money selling CARB certified Cats for Ferrari's. My understanding of why California got into the CARB Cat certification is because people where complaining the aftermarket Cats were not lasting very long due to cheap manufacturing (i.e. skimping on metals). CARB cats are certified for 5 years. Of course, California Air Resources Board (CARB) went overboard in the program.
     
  21. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,702
    Campbell, CA
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    John Zornes
    There are many threads on the various cats. Consistency of the welds, angles, etc. are variable. Some have had no issues with install while others have struggled to get things to fit well, even within one brand. The cat material varies a lot as well and Brian made that point as did AD170. There are some excellent products out there but the low cost providers are kind of like buying Harbor Freight tools: they are much less money, generally work pretty well, but longevity is variable as is the build quality. You may install them, they work for a while then have an issue. You MAY get them to warranty the cat (unlikely) and if you do you are still on the hook to R&R them twice. There is also the CAT efficiency issue noted and well discussed here. SO, no matter what route you go on the low cost options you are likely to be fiddling with them and you have a definite risk of R&R multiple times.
     
  22. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 8, 2016
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    Matt
    Its an anathema to me how California even has a car scene with all of these ridiculous rules and regulations.
     
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  23. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

    May 20, 2018
    1,352
    USA
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    One4torque
    A lot of respect for any car guy who tries to enjoy this hobby in cali.... big props.
     
  24. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2018
    413
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    California has the best car culture, amazing roads and great enthusiasts this smog thing isn't as technical & complicated as claimed by the fchat smog police when it comes to "visual inspections" how many of these smog guys do you think are experts on a Ferrari or a 911 to know if headers are stock or not.. i've had many 911's with air intakes and mods as my DD' as long as they passed the sniff test its not problem..one time i went to a very high end smog station and they told me to put the oem intake on if i don't want a fail they did that before smogging it, so i just went to a diff station and as usual they didn't say anything and it passed.
     
  25. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

    May 20, 2018
    1,352
    USA
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    One4torque
    Tarek- I hear what you are saying. But I just don’t like to have to sneak around and wink wink on my annual inspections.

    I did it for years in my younger days.. but don’t like that Vegas-feeling I get when the inspector comes back w his clip board......... and the verdict is???? Pass or fail.

    that’s the bad part of playing w cars in Cali.

    super jealous of your scenery!!!

    good luck.

    — oh btw I think there is a co that rebuilds your stock headers.
     

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