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Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Farbod Farmand, Nov 28, 2020.
has anyone here converted CC to steel rotors for track use? thoughts and set up? thx
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the ccms wont wear out from non-competitive track use but they will overheat (and so will the steel rotors). You'd be better off adding brake cooling ducting and canards to direct airflow to the rotors. Ie like a challenge car which has proper brake cooling ducting.
not sure about road version but brembo gt3 brakes fit the challenge - im told u can reuse existing callipers from 488c .
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AFAIK all 488 (as well as other cars) used for track rentals are converted to steel discs (Girodisc makes such equipment).
For very extensive use it's certainly more cost effective than CCM, but I'm not sure about performance. Personally I'm trying to upgrade from Brembo CCM to Surface Transforms CCM, I'll see how it will turn out.
fwiw I tracked my 458 at Sebring, Homestead, PBIR (Ill guess 6 track days) and only had 8% CCM wear (including my regular street driving) but I had to replace all the CCM rotors due to they got overheated from track use and it changed the surface to a rough texture that would wear out pads extremely quickly. The track use issue is less about wear and more about if they get overheated they are expensive to replace. So the steel can help you there.
Note the dealer wanted $36,000 for new CCM's, I got it done for $10,000-- bought OEM CCMs from Italy). The steel brakes will be inexpensive to replace should they get damaged form overheating.
Note reg track use wont overheat the ccm's but hard track use can. It can do the same to steel because the problem isn the the rotors/caliper/stopping power-- but the street car Fcars dont have the same brake cooling ducts that direct airflow to cool the brakes that track cars do. Some performance street cars seem to be ok with hard track use (eg Porsche doesnt seem to have this problem).
I laugh when Ferrari pretends these street cars are designed for "racing" (i.e. we have crappy radio and a/c because its designed for performance and saving weight, yet it doesnt have light hollow brake air cooling ducts. Then Ferrari encourages customers to track the car... and then after 6 track days its needs a $36K repair because it cant handle it--LOL. The reality is they are street cars and designed for street use.
Ive brought this up many times here on FChat- whenever tracking and brakes comes up-- I just want to help someone avoid the issue I experienced and save them a $40K potential bill.
thx for this input. yeah, I'm looking to track the car so long term cost is a factor. I run Brembo III/PAgid RS29 on my GT3 and am very happy with that setup. It does heat up towards the end of the day/sessions but not horribly. CC's do hold a better bite throughout the day, but I'm only doing 20min sessions with rest in b/w... Do you know any particular steel rotors Ferrari owners use?
Sebring is my home track for the last 15yrs.. however all in Porsche. I have a 488 now and will be doing a few Chin events next year and my plan is to instruct, which i love to do and just go out for 2 sessions and see how the 488 does. I'm nervous to run it like i did my Porsche Carrera's and GT's though. However hopefully 2 sessions at 8/10ths won't hurt it.
you'll know if they are getting hot. If you start to get brake fad (pedal will get soft and long with reduced braking power and bite) especially into T7 and T10 (they get hot mainly from T7 and dont cool enough by T10 which is where you'll really feel it if it happens). If that happens then come in and let the brakes cool or do a few cool down laps. I was running 2:22 lap times in the Summer which made it worse.
Yep.. Sebring is rough on brakes. I'm curious to see what my 488 does on Michelin Sport Cup2 does compared to my 2018 GT3 did on same tires. My best was a few 2:19 in winter nice cooler 55-65 degree day. Normally i was 2:21-23's in hot weather. I've lost a lot of seat time over the last few years...I use to go at it heavy and travel to other tracks.
I swapped my ceramics on my 991.2 gt3 for AP racing rotors and Ferodo ds3.12 pads. Put the ceramics safe in a box lol. Ferodo are Great pads for light street (fairly flat mu curve and not much noise) ran the car at homestead infield this weekend and once heated up the feel to me is much better on this setup than with the ceramics. I also have a scud but I’m scared to track that thing. It’s way too fragile (I’m also scared to damage it) compared to these Porsche gt cars which can take beatings all day long.
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Has anyone been able to add cooling to the brakes on 458/488? Or does that require taking a bunch of parts from the challenge cars and swapping them over?
Steels are not expensive. An initial install will run you about $6,000. Replacement rotors are less then $1,000 front or rear. Front pads are $400 and rear $300.
We have run over 50,000km on these same rotors and pads in the challenge cars. Expect 3x the wear over your carbon ceramic and significantly better brake performance then the factory CCRM.
If you really want to add some cooling and braking performance to the 458 then Ferrari does make a track package for the street car with new under trays, cooling ducts and calipers.
Trouble with the 488 is it has half the tire the Porsche does. Front tires on the Porsche are bigger then the rears on the 488.
Porsche’s ...911 type...997-991 have been using 245-305... my 9k1 gt3 was 245-305 which is same as 488 and gt3rs are slightly bigger 265/325.
I made the switch to Girodisc steel rotors and pads. Very happy with them for street and track use on my 458. I drive in the instructor run group or at open track events and feel comfortable with the brakes. They come up to temp quickly and work well on the street. Wear has been insignificant and the pad/disc combo is lasting way longer than any other setup I have tried through the years. The OEM carbon/carbon setup showed significant wear after a single track weekend so the change to steel has already proven itself to me. Yes, I recommend the Girodisc I am using today. Be sure to call them directly, they are knowledgeable and willing to help.
After 15 years of tracking cars, steel is best. The pedal feel is more in tune on a competitive track. Carbon is the bomb for sure but any person who tracks cars knows that rotors will crack. Steel is cheaper.
After all; if you wanna go faster, don't brake!
hope everyone is doing good. I’ve posted an issue about my ceramic brakes in the forum and wanted to get a bit of feedback. My car has 6,000 miles and I did 1 track day, about 9-10 laps, with professional supervision. On the last lap the pedal travel went all the way to the floor. After cooling the car down it came back. And if I pumped the pedal afterwards the feeling came back. I took it to the dealer and they quoted me “Brake pads are cracked and discs are overheated. Brake caliper gaitors deformed”. They said I need a complete replacement thought I declined it due to the price. The car feels ok so I’m confused what they are on about. Any advise?
Issue with brake calipers is a new one for me - it's unfortunately not unusual to have the pads and discs destroyed by heat... changing the pads will make the car feel like it's OK in light use, but the discs will wear the pads far faster.
Thanks for the explanation. I took the car to someone else for a second opinion. The initial look was no visible cracks and that the brakes need cleaning. The pads seem to have life to them and there seems to be a score mark but it’s only visual not to the touch. They saw one of the drill holes had a tinny chip but nothing that I would need to immediately worry about. They said they will keep the car and look into it in detail. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the feedback.
Has anyone had any problems with dealers while wanting to switch out the carbon ceramic discs for steels on 488 GTBs or Pistas with dealers stating your warranty will get voided or being frowned upon in any way shape or form?
In Europe changing the disc from CCM to steel should make the car illegal and automatically void the warranty as the car had its technical characteristics changed.
Changing for non OEM parts (i.e. going for other brands) is more debatable even though Ferrari would not be happy with it.
I'm surprised that you like the steel brakes for track applications better:
There are steel brakes on my current 911, I have also driven other 911's that have PCCB on the same tracks and immediately noticed the difference. It's not only the lighter discs improving non-suspended mass - it's the reliability and consistency of the biting that gives full confidence in a 200-30 heavy brake before a hairpin. I haven't heard 911 drivers complain about the PCCB, and those who switch to steel are typically heavy trackers who do it for obvious budget reasons.
What would be wrong with the CCM ?
I would look at a lot of track time and from what I've read for various cars of this caliber, the performance difference between carbon ceramics and steels is minimal and like you said, the price for rotors/pads would be astronomical between CCBs and steels.
Thanks. I certainly understand the price aspect and that's why my car has steel rotors (I put 10k miles / year on it in normal times)
I was surprised however to read that the steel rotors were *better* than composite...
That being I would probably install steel rotors if I tracked an F as I tend to push quite hard and will appreciate the advice that can save one $37.000 ;-)
Oh indeed steels are better than CCBs on price point mainly. If I was an advanced open wheel/sportscar driver I would prefer CCBs myself but until I get to that point then steel brakes it is.
Back to my original question though, has anybody ever tried to convert CCBs to steel while trying to maintain their warranty and if so, what was your experience with the dealers?