Drivers kill people cars don't kill people People kill people. Guns don't kill people. Unfortunately it only takes money to buy these cars. 95% of the drivers in them (all exotics) are not capable of driving these cars at speed yet electronic nannies make you feel different. This is a horrid accident at the hands of what appears to be a driver with a skill set. John you quickly claim car error and I think it's ridiculous for anyone to think it's anything but driver error. You also claim the CGT as a car that's easy to run to the store in. I couldn't disagree more. The car isn't easy to just tool around in town with many blind spots. The cars do what they are told to do. Period. I would also say I've heard of as many Challenge Stradale crashes As CGT crashed in the last 5 years and I don't think they Are at all tough to drive. When a car is driven at its edge by a driver beyond its capability. Bad things happen. The cars are perfection. Their isn't one flaw in them except the guy driving the car.
no offense intended, and I did read your post and agree with most of it; but you must be able to see how a high-profile plaintiff's attorney chiming in on a matter like this with his "analysis/opinion" is going to be read a certain way by many people (myself included).
I love how Porsche is unapologetic about the GT. Undiluted purity good. Dumbed down crap for the gold-chain set bad.
I believe you and I can both correct The driver is a fault, no question. If you read my post I don't disagree with this. But I also believe that a deeper reflection on this is coming whether we are ready for it or not. The CGT is the last super car that will come without drivers aids, and in my opinion, and that of many it should have them. The Ferrari 360C had a safe traction control. It is also not nearly as powerful or tricky as a CGT. The CGT is on a different level altogether. IMHO it will be the last super at without good electronic safety aids and for good reason. As for my comments about the CGT being easy to drive at low speeds. I was making a comparison to the streetable Lemans prototypes of the past. The driver that drives over his head is always at fault intimately. And I don't think the CGT rises to the level of serious liability, as I've said. But I think Porsche should have opted for electronic aids on this car. And if they are honest, they wish it too having a do over. And they will not do it again. They made more than ten times as many 360C than CGT. Its reputation as a car that can trick you is well deserved. It's extreme power is very easy to sneak up on you. Even for an experience driver. I am not debating driver fault. Traction control can and should be able to be turned off. And in this instance it likely would have. Yet it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a spotlight on this car that we deeply understand and ALL of the reasons for the issues presented.
My reputation wouldn't be too well deserved if I argued against the product liability case to promote one.
I think you can look to Porsche's next super car project to determine whether Porsche thinks electronic aids are "dumb down crap" for a street supercar. I also would wager that Porsche would reject any statement which would refer to this accomplished Porsche Cup racer or his passenger as "gold chain set," or to dismiss what happens to crash victims in a CGT as an unapologetic sacrifice to purity. I don't say they should or do acknowledge responsibility but I doubt they would share your offensive characterization. What happened here was a horrible tragedy. A driver made a terrible mistake. And we should all think about it.
This is starting to smell lawyerly. Parsing, turning a phrase's intent on it's head, righteous indignation, etc. Whatever. Granted a chat room format isn't optimal for exchange of ideas so I'll clarify. My comments were limited to the CGT. That's it. Extrapolating a reference to the poor guys that died and their families or some future car from Porsche is fiction. Of course it's a tragedy. That's a given. Painfully obvious. I give up.
I didn't intend to paraphrase or misquote you, which is why I started with the exact quote you chose to post in the middle of the thread and posts discussing the deaths of these men and the dangers and risks of the CGT. Your quote is above and positing it, where and when you did speaks for itself. And I suppose it needed no response from me. It just struck me as wrong factually and in its context.
I've driven just about every thing under the sun and the CGT is one tricky car. At hard throttle throwing the car into second makes you very nervous. Especially if the outside temperature is under 75 degrees, watch out. You will always get the rear tires loose, the car will fish tail every time! Apply the breaks too soon and you will swap ends. I like my CGT very much, but know that there are risks. There are other cars we all know off that have issues. The 930's did. The F40 once the turbos spool up if you're in a low gear, will make you feel like you're drift racing. I heard that there are better tire options to help with the CGT's lack of traction. I highly doubt that any driver's aids or better tires would of prevented what happened with Paul and his friend. If you're going to street race, be prepared to die or kill others. No matter what car you're driving, if you loose control at a high speed there are objects firmly planted all around that will stop you. Once you loose control that's all it takes and than just hope there are no trees around. It's really that simple. Vipers, F50's driven by FBI Special agents, high powered tuner cars and many other powerful cars will get you spinning toward death at an instant. Hack in high school driving a Dodge Dart with a 318 V8 two barrel I lost it and the car went in circles crossing four lanes not stopping till I was on a shoulder facing the opposite direction of traffic. I was lucky and so was my passenger who was safe but s*it a brick once we were stationary. A few months ago a real 427 Cobra owned by the owner for over 30 years almost got totaled when is swapped ends and got t-boned by a large tree. The driver was almost killed. He was not even going very fast. I think that driving these beasts aggressively must be done on tracks where fire suites, roll bars and fire protection is utilized. There are still risks, but no nearly as high. Using public streets to show off the car's and the driver's capabilities is irresponsible and can kill you. Geno
Jeez dude. Of course you get that Ferrarichat in general is for high performance (cars not necessarily people) motoring enthusiasts. This thread in particular is about the Carrera GT and whether there is a design flaw. Being a motoring enthusiast, I enjoy discourse on things motoring. (I'm trying to be concrete and clear so as not to be misunderstood.) The initial point was the CGT is pure and undiluted by computerized crutches. IOW a perfect sportscar. Ya buys the car, ya takes your chances. Beautiful. A lawyers nightmare--hominids actually responsible for their own behavior. No nanny state crap to bail em out. Old school. Non PC. There is another thread Germaine to the crash in question. This is where crash debate should be IMHO. Prayers for families involved.
Lawyer away. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/general-automotive-discussion/430137-paul-walker-fast-furious-died-wreck-9.html
No. Once you actually know how to handle the clutch it is no problem. You just have to let the car roll on its own and once it's rolling, take you foot of the clutch. But the CGT will spin its wheels on a dry road, in a straight line in 1st, 2nd and 3rd and the back will kick out. I have seen it kick out on a straightline, in dry conditions several times.So depending on how much throttle, how dry the road is, if the front wheels are straight or not, it can get ugly very quickly if you are not prepared and dont know this. Also the chassis is very stiff, so when it goes, it goes. But that driver was a very good amateur racer so he probably knew the above. I guess he was just going way too fast.
Why would anyone talk about the highest profile CGT double fatality crash when discussing the CGT design flaw? Because its relevant, and because a big giant spotlight will be shown not only on the CGT but on all super cars. And if we discuss the risks associated with the lack of driver aids as "beautiful" in this context and dismiss them as "nanny state" and "dumb down" for the "gold chain crowd", it will confirm the allegations of irresponsibility against us. Thankfully Supercar manufactures disagree with this opinion and this will be the last Supercar from a major without them. It is true the CGT is an unusually tricky supercar that can be very dangerous. It's also true that if a driver turns off electronic aids to show off it will not matter. And hopefully part of the message will be not to do this on the street. But the spotlight will still be bright.
Horrible event on all accounts . Not sure any but this thread reminds me the hot coffee McDonalds debacle
Lawyer: You're right. Car manufacturers have a duty under article 1 paragraph 1 of the "more $ than brs
Mathew. My name is John Houghtaling. You are welcome to refer to me as John. I've gave a long thoughtful post about the CGT. It included a short legal opinion that I don't believe the Porsche had much products liability for the CGT. It also included an involved discussion based upon experience with ultra high performance exotic cars. Your welcome to fixate on the fact that I am a lawyer and wrongly assume I base my opinions on legal obligation. But you would be wrong. I based my opinion that the CGT is an unusually tricky and dangerous car for the public based upon my experience as an exotic car collector, a guy who's personally hosted over 30 Ferrari events, someone who has experience with a CGT, several supercars, someone who's raced for 20 years, and runs an one of the largest exotic car racing series in North America. I am not sure how extensive your personal experience is with the CGT or other supercars but you might want to read-read my post and the points I am making, (if you care about the issues of course.) If you have extensive experience with driving or racing ultra high performance exotics you might find something you agree with. My opinion was based in the fact that I love exotics, and some of my best experiences is with guys that share this passion. And that I hate to see these tragedies and the scrutiny that will follow. To suggest that its dangerous is not to suggest it is so unusually dangerous that it exposes the manufacturer to liability or excuses the negligent driver who is responsible. Maybe the fact that you've determined I have a law degree has thrown you off.
I just lost a long, good post. Pity it was good IMO. I'll summarize: If Joe drug dealer, trust fund baby or otherwise nuveau riche takes possession of one of the most unforgiving cars on earth, dies while driving it unsafely it's his damn fault. If a panel of cowed jurors ala OJ decide otherwise it doesn't change the fundamental truth.
I don't disagree and I have no idea what your point is. Yet it appears to demonstrate you either have not read or do not comprehend what I have posted.
Thanks - so lets compare it to an Enzo (for my own understanding); I know the CGT is a deadly mothr f'er; but aside from the paddle shifts; is is the lack of traction control - compared to something like an Enzo - the big problem? I know a cgt owner, but have never asked if its tough to drive. Seems like there are a lot of Supercars, that are all phenomenal, but the cgt has its own dark reputation compared to the others ( aside from its amazing sound)..... Kevin
BTW with respect counselor you might proofread your posts for grammar and spelling to preserve credibility. Unless you're like this guy: Image Unavailable, Please Login
