Challenge questions (costs and skill level)

Good Morning Steve!

First off you have to have a Grand Am Comp Lic. They are the sactioning body.

In 2006 the Challenge will be for 430's. I do not know if they will grand father in the 360's like they did the 355's.

As far as I know, no one has rented a car for any of the races. There fore you have to buy a car to run. All equipment is maintained by a dealer. You have to pick up the one you want to deal with. Average week end is $15000 plus your expenses and any damage you due to your car. That's it in a nut shell.

Since the prices keep increasing more and more drivers are opting to run something else.

I hope that I've been of some help

Bruce

 

I am not up to date on prices but a few years ago the cost run down was as follows:

1) FNA fee $2400 per race
2) Dealer fee $8000-$12000 per race (different for every dealer)
3) Track insurance w/ 10K deductible $2000-$3000.

Total cost about $15,000-$17,000 per weekend.

Cost of the car is about $200K. With 6 races you are looking at 300K at a minimum but likely closer to 400K with test days, damage, travel expenses and legal modifications to the car.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod

PS: Last year the option was available to rent a car. FOW quoted me roughly 22-25K for a race weekend.

 

Jon's numbers are very close to what I've seen. Other expenses you might want to also consider were a spare engine and a spare gear box. To be very competitive, you're looking at close to $500k if you count the full purchase price of the car.

Spec Miatas are a fraction of the cost.

 

Steve,

The numbers quoted from the other reply's are pretty close. I was planning to do a couple of races last year. I had a buddy of mine who a few challenge cars and was willing to rent the car out to me. You could probably find someone out there who is willing to rent their car, but it is very rare. I was shooting for racing in the Texas race and the world finals and togther the total cost came out to $93000 with rental of the car. Here is a list of what it included:Entry Fee Package
Texas: $3500.00
Italy:$3500.00
Italy Package: $16,000.00
Texas race
Italy: World Finals
Tires: 6 sets of Pirelli tires
Fuel
Trophies
Hospitality

Test Days
3 days of testing at Willow springs track
$6,000 each day
Car preparation
Transportation to the track
Engineer
Technician and assistant
Crew Chief and Hospitality

Rental Of Challenge Car
Texas: $10,000 with $4,000 insurance
Italy: $10,000 with $4,000 insurance
Race Support Fee
Texas: $12,000
Italy:$12,000
Car preparation
25 hours of Labor
Transportation to Texas
Technician and assistant
Crew Chief, fuel and hospitality


Italy race package: $37,500
Texas race package:$37,500
3 Days of Testing, Willow Springs raceway: $18,000
Total:$93,000

I hope this helps. You can run the grand cup series for about the same or maybe less, depending on the team.

Vic

 

Grand Cup Series? I assume you mean Grand Am Cup or possibly Grand Am Rolex. You could run both of those series, and Grand Am Cup would be cheaper.

I have been in talks with several teams over the past year. Here is a rental run down:

Grand Am Cup:
GS class (911, 350Z, BMW M3) $12,000-$14,000 per driver for one race weekend. Different teams have different damage retainers. Most require at least 10-15K in deposit. Some offer insurance $1500-$2500.

ST class (RX8, BMW 330i, Acura RSX) $5500-$6300 per driver for one race weekend. Damage retainers and insurance similar to above.

You could almost run an entire season for the above amount (93K). Competition will vary between those who are out to have fun to those like Turner Motorsports or Planet Earth Motorsports who employ and pay professional drivers to race for them.

Grand Am Rolex

I am only going to focus on GT class (formerly SGS class). I have no idea what it would cost of if you can even rent a Daytona Prototype.

GT class (Porsche Cup car, Porsche RSR, BMW M3, 360GT, Maserati Trofeo, Corvette ...). It's actually fairly close across all teams. In most cases it's $17,000 - $20,000 per race weekend. Average damage retainer is around $25,000 (this is your deductible). Insurance that protects you beyond 25K usually costs around 3-4K though not all teams offer it.

Competition here is much fiercer. At the minimum most non-professionals will have extensive race experience. At the front of the grid are the factory drivers and those who make a living racing these cars.

If you want to do the 24 Hour it was roughly 35K-40K last season.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jon

 

First and probably most important, the Ferrari Challenge and GrandAm (either Rolex or GA Cup) are intended for different people. GrandAm's series do have a number of amateurs and pay drivers, but are meant to be professional series and all-out racing.

At test days last weekend a seat was available (to a qualified driver only) in a mid-pack DP for $65K for the race. A GT car with even a vague chance of a top ten finish (remembering that there are 27+ GTs entered) will cost $40K or more. And again, only a qualified driver need apply. There are backmarker GT cars which will cost slightly less, but which will struggle to finish.

This test days was unusual in that there were a number of drivers walking the paddock with check books in hand looking for seats. At least one offered a particular team more than the going rate, and was still turned down. No one wants to add a weak link.

 

Wow, these costs are sobering. Glad I only race virtually...

IMHO a nice alternative are Go Karts. Very competitive, fairly safe and a lot less pricey. It is not the same obviously, but once you're in the middle of a pack fighting for position the thrills are similar.

 

Jon your are right. I meant the Grand am cup, that was a typo.

Vic

 

Steve...
If you want to go racing, especially if you haven't done it before,go amatuer racing in the SCCA. The Ferrari challenge is "Gentlemen" racing. It is unbelievably expensive. For the price of two Challenge weekends you could do a whole SCCA season. Okay..you won't be racing some "cool" ferrari, but you also won't worry about squeezing into a corner with another car. Rubbing is racing....except if you have to pay to fix a Ferrari.
I started with track days in my 355GTB and loved it. One day at Road Atlanta the last session of the day not alot of cars went out and they let us pass anywhere we wanted. What a difference that made. I was hooked, got my license and went racing.
Give it a try you won't be sorry

 

Motor Racing is speed, how fast do you want to spend?

you can buy all sorts of SCCA cars and run a couple of years for less than 50K.

Or, go vintage, more gentlemanly (in the US), similar costs for 4-5 races a year.

Brian

 

Agreed.

Best regards,

Rob Schermerhorn

 

And it is a joke. The average ability of most drivers is abismal. If you want to look cool and play at racing, I fully encourage you give it a go. If you want to learn and experience real racing do something else.

One of the reasons it is so expensive is due to the lack of driver ability and thus the constant unnecessary contact between 2 cars ... real racers minimalise this by skill, those that can't crash!

The Porsche GT3 series is better, but I bet there are still too many tossers involved.

Pete

 

If you REALLY want to race, and if you've gotta look cool doing it, race SCCA DSR. Here's the low down: Stohr racecar (new) 65k (used and sorted) 45k Cost per weekend 1500 (if you wrench by yourself) 2500 (if you hire help)
The stohr weighs somewhere around 850lbs, have aero and run near openwheel lap time. The racing is clean (because most of the people running, have openwheel experience and temperment) and the fields are deep.
For 500k you could race forever. 500k to run a spec series like Ferrari Challenge is a joke.

 

Gosh, Pete, I'm really reluctant to challenge such a legendary Ferrari racer and expert as yourself, but I am compelled to ask, when did you EVER attend a Ferrari Challenge race, of any stripe, in North America? In how many of these events have you competed? Other than the Internet and your own sense of superiority, on what do you base your comments?

Your comments remind me of your fellow Aussie quoted elsewhere (Paul Stoddart); lots of arrogance, lots of ego, lots of nonsense.

 

All good and valid points. No I have never attended a Ferrari Challenge race ... er, I think. I might have actually witnessed one at one of the Melbourne GP's that I went to ... or it was a Porsche series, cannot remember, that disinterested. Lots of crashing and bashing ... bit like local Aussie production based racing which also suffers from shallow talent (ie. first time racers, etc.).

An example of how amature these series are is when Wayne Gardner (a Aussie ex-motorcyle racer that has turned car racer, who yes has won a few races in Japan but is considered pretty average in Australia as a driver ... definitely brilliant on a bike though) jumped into a Lamborghini (same sort of series) a few years ago, started from the pit lane (as they could not get the drivers door closed for some reason) and ended up battling for the lead!.

Greg Murphy also raced and won easily, but he is a professional driver ... but had never even sat in such a car before. He only drove in this race because he was between professional drives and needed to keep his exposure up ...

To me that is an embarrassment to these types of series.

Or we say it like we see it ... which might not be how others see it, or even right . BTW: Read the complete thread ... I am not the only one with this opinion. Gentleman racing is a kinder description of what it is ...

In the end name me a quality professional driver that started his career in such a series. Yes some have demo'ed their ability in these 'for show' series but I do not know of anybody that started out and now is a serious professional racing driver. Happy to be wrong on this though.

If you want to be a racing driver, bye a kart or go club racing (cheaper and you will learn much more from experienced drivers ... not rich playboys).

Pete
ps: These sort of one make series do have there place, but if you want to start racing you start cheap ... not in a $500,000 per year series. Only the drivers with deep pockets will win, thus you will not make your mark. Australia has a Mitzi Mirage series ... something like $30,000 per year (?, not sure of exact figure) and many first time racers chose this path.

In the end these flash marque one make series are purposely made to show off the cars ... not the drivers. Thus not what I recommend for this person (thread starter) who wants to start racing.

 

To address a couple of points before leaving for Cavallino:

1) Derek Hill (F3000, although his success was limited by several things including his budget), Cort Wagner (twice GrandAm [professional] GT Driver Champion with multiple professional wins in multiple series (and now driving for Chip Ganassi in GrandAm DP) and a few others started in the Ferrari Chalenge. There are a few others who have not attained this level, but Doug Peterson (twice SCCA National Champion in F/Mazda, beating kids who could be his sons), Tom Papadopoulos, who was tested by the PTG BMW team and could have had the drive, Steve Earle, and quite a few more are very, very competent drivers. (And I've worked with enough professional drivers to have some feel for talent.)

2) Again; the Ferrari Challenge isn't for everybody. There are people for whom the budget is not a problem, and who enjoy the series for a variety of reasons. Some are excellent drivers; some aren't. Doesn't matter. Each is in it for his or her own reasons, and they may nor may not be yours. Most of these people have little interest in D/SR, Radicals on track days, or whatever. If they did, that's what they'd be doing. Different strokes and all that. Mocking or degrading them takes nothing away from their enjoyment of what they do. Yes, they're amateurs. This is called a hobby. The Ferrari Challenge is the longest-running series of its type in North America. Perhaps there's a reason. (And by the first paragaph of the rules, the Ferrari Challenge is not intended to develop professional drivers. There are plenty of other series with that purpose.)

Pete, I'll leave Stoddart to you. Perhaps he really does believe that there are 18 Ferrari reps who actually wrote the 2005 FIA F1 regs. He's entitled to that opinion. The rest of us are also entitled to opinions about those who believe in shooting first and aiming later.

 

I agree with the costs being quoted by the guys here. Having been at FoDallas during the Steve Earle days, I got to attend many of the races and actually helped with Doc's 360 a couple of times. For the most part the drivers lack a little of the skill of the guys who spend much less to race lesser expensive cars. They look good and it is a prestigious series but you can have loads of fun for much less.

I agree with Rob. Even a spec Miata can be a lot of fun and you can learn a lot.

 

Appreciate your reply, and stand corrected. I do not know most of those drivers, but I have heard of Steve Earle.

And your last comment is why I cannot recommend it for somebody starting out in motor sport. Surely we should encourage new people to motor sport into a cost effective series that enables talent to shine through. Heck our thread starter might be the next MS ... hate to see that talent hidden in a series that is designed for enormous budgets and the look at me crowd (and heck nobody can argue that anybody that races a Ferrari road car, when the same budget could have them racing a far more serious race car, has to have atleast a little look at me factor ). I myself just could not enter such a series ... but then I am too much of an engineer to want jump into a spec'ed car.

Yes I am also a little confused with Paul lately. His whinging is not at all Australian (or like a New Zealander, which I am proudly one). While I am sure he is working hard at it, I have yet to see him roll his sleaves up and tough it out and make something of the team ... currently it is stagnent and does not appear to be moving forward at all.

Pete

 

Pete, you just don't get it. The challenge series is not about "climbing the motorsports ladder" or getting people into racing. Its a bunch of gentlemen (and a few ladies) that are enjoying the "Ferrari experience". A lot of effort has gone into it and the team that is running it has done a very good job (as OG says, its one of the longest lasting series, and that itself says a lot).

Are there better ways to get into motorsport? Sure. That's why the SCCA has the history it has and you can get into spec racing for little cash.

But the Ferrari Challenge isn't about getting into racing. Its about having a good time with other like minded individuals. The brief time I was associated with it are some of my best memories. Especially seeing my wife help bleed brakes on a 360 Challenge car. Its one of those little details that made me say "yes, she's the one for me."

 

It is interesting to read the post by all involved in this discussion. If I had the funds, I would choose the Ferrari Challenge any day of the week. Nothing makes the blood boil like a Ferrari at speed, with the exception of multiple Ferraries at speed.. and the sound...so I purchased a former Challenge car. Jim Kenton won the last 348 series with this car in 1996. Since I cannot race, I drive it on the street, as it is registered, taged and titled, over 9,000 since March, with most of my driving in the Blue Ridge Mountains from Asheville NC to Tennessee at Deals Gap, www.tailofthedragon.com. I have participated in a few laps at Road Atlanta, Roebling Road, and Carolina Motorsports Park, and plan to do Indy this year during F1 weekend. I love the sound of test pipes, the full beating I take, the lack of air conditioning, and the long 6-700 mile weekend drives through scenic NC. After such a drive I swear I will not drive for a few months, only to feel the urge again around mid week.

One of the persons who has posted here is truely an expert and an excellent judge of talent, having written the rules for the American Ferrari Challenge, FORZA NUMBER 54 JUNE 2004 ....Gian Luigi Buitoni, then the boss of Ferrari North America (FNA) turned to **, then the executive director of the Ferrari Club of America (FCA), for help developing the American series.** defined the basic series structure, wrote the regulations, worked with Ferrari expert Dick Merritt at the Department of Transportation to iron out the details of importing the cars and served as series administrator...

The Challenge is exclussive no dobt due to cost, and the desire as well as ability to spend the money.

Sincerely,

David Mitty