Challenge questions (costs and skill level)

Yes I do get it ... lets remind all the post that started this thread:

Thus surely it is only proper for us to point out to Steve that his comment regarding it being fun is 100% appropriate for this series and not a stepping stone (as you have all pointed out ... I knew that).

If we just all posted that it is a great series and Steve thought that he could start a racing career from the Challenge series ... then we would be doing Steve a dis-service. This comment from Steve:

Means to me (I guess only me ), is it a series worth anything, does winning it mean anything? ... if you ask that question then you are thinking more than just fun, and thus the wrong series (IMO) for Steve.

... I'll shut up now

Pete's left the building ... I guess Steve has read the rules too
... but I had a good chat with myself

 

The point to this whole thread is that Steve thought that since he was doing some track days that in the near future he might go racing in the Ferrari Challenge. Most people who don't race but enjoy racing and do track days think that it is a simple transition from track day junkie to racer. And hell if you're gonna go racing why not race a cool car.....makes sense to me. UNTIL you actually race..huge difference in being on the track and unbelievable costs even if you race a sh*tbox. I knew it would start a flame war when I mentioned "Gentlemen" racer..but I didn't know what else to call it. Because the cars are so expensive to fix and expensive to campaign you have to be more careful then you would say in a Miata. Case in point: I raced a 355CH in the SCCA T1 class. One day in the rain the window fogged completely over car spun around and hit the wall @ 100mph on the right rear corner. I fixed the car for 35K, sold it and bought a Corvette T1 racecar for $45K, got in a wreck where I hit a wall head on at 90mph....$8k damage. I couldn't even begin to think of wrecking a 360 CH!!!!!
And just because I said "gentlemen" racer, did not mean I meant incompetant.Some of those guys are pretty good shoes...albeit rich ones!!!!

 

DOCTOR Steve Earle is my hero and a heck of a nice guy......but he has a day job! LOL!

I think he just does it to win the trip to Italy, a nice vacation from sawing bones!

Have a fun weekend O.G.!!!!

*waving*

There was also a husband and wife in the series, very lovely people, I sat with them in the stands at Indy that year. As Judge says, a good way to sort them! Bleeding brakes..........LOL!

 

Paul Frame!

Now THERE was a diamond broker, er........Challenge Driver for ya!

 

Bubba,

Yeah, Paul was a real tiger behind the wheel....

O.G.

(P.S. -- I'm pretty sure I know the couple to whom you refer. He died unexpectedly a couple of years ago, and I'll only say that the entire situation is the poster story for estate planning. Rob has a car they formerly owned. And you're right -- lovely people.)

 

And wonderful people to be around. He's going to be missed.

 

Recent posts of mine about the Challenge series have been less than enthusiastic so I won't go that route (recent years).

However, I can say many postive things about the series as a spectator in the mid 90's up until I quit attending in 2001 (save for one or two races).

Up until about 01 or 02, the field had a large variety of near-professional racers many of whom have graduated to higher levels. Those include Dunno (though she didn't have much skill in the series), Wagner, Papadopoulos, and a few others who didn't go any higher but who likely could (Kenton, McCormick, and several others).

As a spectator watching these races in the 90's I saw some very fantastic racing by the competitors. I cannot comment on whether they all just wanted to have fun or if they were using it to get somewhere else but the racers I watched in the 348's and 355's had talent and skill, enough so that there was close racing all the way to the middle of the pack.

I don't know if it was the internet boom or something else but around the time the 360's were introduced the series seemed to have plenty of cars, but the racing seemed to be centered around a few talented individuals and the rest were way behind in terms of lap times.

I also think that somewhere along the line (about the same time) people started taking the Challenge series to seriously and running up costs. People rumored to be bringing back up cars to Watkins Glen in 02, people trying to buy cars from the slower group after crashing theirs in practice (in 01 or 02 there was a A group and B group). I also saw drivers who had no business being in race car and a danger to others. One such racer eventually went on to Grand Am and I was told, had his license suspended (O.G. correct me on this if I am wrong...his initials were R. M. )

It may just be my perception of things and as stated previously I have some "sour" grapes about my own failed participation in the series, but the 90's seemed to me to provide the closest racing with the best drivers.

We now have people, who raced in the 90's competing at LeMans and other professional series (Earle, Dunno and Wagner).

O.G. on a different note who did Hill loose the title to in 94 (or 93?). I know he had no prior race car experience but he had years of karting experience. How was it he was left into the series (I also don't think he owned the car). Were the rules different back then?

I don't want to shed any negativity on the series as I have in the past but I simply think the series has lost much of the charm of the 90's. I know O.G. and Ferrari NA are trying to rebuild the series and wish them luck. When I was at Watkins Glen in 94 (maybe it was 93) and watched Derek Hill win the race in a 348 it became my dream one day to run in the series if I could ever afford it. If I won the lottery tomorrow that would no longer be the case as I think Rolex is where I would end up.

Regards,

Jon

PS: I met the wife of the person who died a few years ago. She was at the 348/355 Challenge reunion at Lime Rock in 03 driving another 355 C that I think was her husband's. Very delighful lady.

 

In the FWIW department, the Challenge race at the 2002 F1 in Montreal was more fun to watch than the big show. I believe that this was one of Dr. Earle's last Challenge races, and he was driving like a man on fire. Gentlemen's racing my hiney. At least at the hairpin, they were giving each other new paint jobs.

Granted the back markers were a bit slow. The crazy motorcycle guy who drove a flat black car looked like he was out for a Sunday cruise. But, again, the leaders were really racing.

Once the pitting starts in the F1 race, it gets hard to understand whose on first and what's on second. The is particularly true when the man in the jumbo tron is screaming in French.

Can I afford to do Challenge racing? Nope. Can I afford to go F1 racing? Nope. But, I still like to watch em.

On a side note, I wonder how many 348/355/360 Challenge cars are in the US. Perhaps there are enough to start a club series?

Dale

 

I was also watching the last challenge race at Indy, but I had a different opinion. I was quite dismayed to see three cars trying to pass each other coming into turn 1...while the yellow flag was waving. There had been an accident at T2 on the previous lap and two cars were parked right in the middle of the track. The 3 cars still racing w/each other almost caused a disaster. I think only luck saved them from wrecking 5 cars in one shot.

One of the two cars involved in the initial accident had fubar'd the line through 1 & 2 on every lap all weekend long and finally capped it off by hitting someone else.

I was not at all surprised when I learned the Challenge series wouldn't be returning after that race.

Greg A

 

Rob,

Those guys involved in that incident were definitely backmarkers. However, watching that kind of soured me on the whole Challenge series. I'm guilty of letting a few poor drivers influence my opinion too heavily.

Greg A

 

No, O.G. The tiger part came LATER!!!! LOL! That's subtle....real subtle.

Now I've got to get my race program out. He signed it and we had a picture together as well. We must be talking about the same couple...she had a 355C, but did not race that first year at Indy.

He was in the new 360C, and they were talking during the race on cell phones! He won, IIRC, or was second behind Dr. Earle....

Dead????? That's terrible!

*thinking, thinking*

Sarah?You know you're getting old when you can't remember the BLONDS!

Although I helped two lovelies thru the gates and THEY were wives of Lake Forest drivers as well. Teams were short credentials, and it was pandamonium.

I would have starved except for Ferrari of Central Florida, they had a fruit tray......

 

A couple of quick answers:

Bubba -- It's possible that the couple mentioned was not Ed and Toni Martinez, but the Wahls (Quentin and Sara). Quention did finish well -- I don't recall a win off hand, but I'm sure he had some podium finishes at least. Sara was racing a 355, but they might have been considering an upgrade. (And their cars may be here at Cavallino, for sale. I haven't tried to match up the cars yet -- too many neat old cars here.)

Jon -- Derek finished second in the US in 1995 to George Robinson, then went on to win the World Challenge Finals. There were questions about both drivers -- Derek could not title the car in his own name due to some California law (age) which I forget. He had a karting background, but certainly didn't make his living from the racing then (he was still in school). George had won a TransAm, but had been a long-time Ferrari retail customer (something like 17 Ferraris from Ferrari of Houston), and cetainly didn't make his living from racing either. I try to answer more of your questions later, probably when I return.

Rob -- Ferrari NA has looked at some sort of series for 348s and 355s on more than one occasion since their eligibility for the Challenge ended. I think whoever looked at it was concerned about parts availability (which would be an issue if it were a Ferrari-organized series). For instance, try to find a rear sub-frame for a 348 Challenge car. Most of the 348s and 355s have been modified from their original Challenge specs, and trying to find a standardized set of rules (again, for Ferrari) would be an issue. Most owners would not be willing to convert their cars "back" to Challenge specs if it meant more money and perhaps less performance. I have to say that safety standards which have developed over the years would be an issue as well. These are issues for a privately organized series (such as you plan) as well, but nowhere like what they would be if it were Ferrari's series. (Hasn't another "let's sue Ferrari NA" thread popped up on FChat again...?)

As I said, more later when I have more time.

O.G.

 

Quentin...........and Sara...that's it, thanks!

Glad to hear they are still around.

*whew*

Have BIG FUN this weekend, regards to John and Alicia from the World's Fastest Art Car!

 

I think they just want to complain, not litigate......LOL!

 

A little funny story about Derek's races in Italy. He was given a car from the factory to run. During that time, the 1,2,3 place finishers received a factory car to use in the finale. Anyway. Derek kicked but in every event was in. He was on the pole for each race. After each event, they tried to DQ him for car problems but could not find a thing wrong with the equipment. I mean to say they really really tried. For the major finale, which was also for the Championship of Italy, they came to him and said something to the effect of

- This is for the Championship for the Series of Italy and the top runners are behind you (since you are on the pole) would you please start from the pit out so that they could race for the championship? - Derek told them NO, they can race for their championship behind him. -

Then he went on to win that race too.

Just a little bit of the politics

Bruce

 

Did you see the Barrett Jackson highlights tonight on speed? 360 Challenge for $98,500? Just caught a glance, not sure if this is now or past result. Price about right for those who know this car? Did you hear the commentator talking on about driving it on the street in GA or MS? I know, it is impossible...

Also, current SPORTS CAR MARKET 550 GT S/N 106404 Le Mans by Ferte/Barde/Lesoudier sold for $146,400 condition 2+. Sounds like the ultimate track car.