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Challenge Stradale TCU Upgrade

Discussion in '360/430' started by Markjayw, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Eric knows FAR more than I do about these systems and if the pressure is a SW parameter it is possible but my beer money is still on the same pressure.

    The Porsche reflash example isn't particularly good in my opinion. You are just saying that someone can push the pump and seals out to the edge of their operational limits and they may not fail. BUT the factory didn't do it for the Porsche, tuners did. When the factory wanted more for street cars it was different parts because they need to maintain reliability and that isn't at 99% or more.
     
  2. rustybits

    rustybits Formula 3
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    The system pressure of 50-60 bar remains the same with the stradale tcu. The map for the shifts is different and the adjustments are far finer with this unit. You can run with a PIS as low as 4.1 on a good stock clutch which is why the shifts are so quick. The only adjustment for pressure on these systems is on the valve block, there's a nut with an allen-key headed grub screw, which your not supposed to tamper with.
     
  3. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    For information I have dug out my research notes I made on the TCU when I was learning about it, here's the summary if you need more extensive notes let me know. I have a lot more but this gives a good overview.

    After this its deep into the detail and pin outs but this high level summary should suffice for most people...

    ----
    Magneti Marelli - Automated Manual Transmission (AMT) TCU System.

    On the Ferrari 360/430 (and variants such as the CS) the Transmission Control Unit is fitted behind the seats under a removable cover in the interior. The TCU acquires signals coming from the different sensors and uses those inputs to decide on its mode operation. It interfaces with the engine control unit (Bosch Motronic Ignition management) and controls the hydraulic system for gear actuation. Finally it manages the information Dashboard display and controls the buzzer (as necessary) via CAN line messages to allow the gear to be displayed to the driver and any warnings of failures.

    Input signals required are the following;
    • RPM speed, (from rev. counter through Bosch Motronic control unit)
    • Gearbox input revs
    • Car speed (information to CAN line)
    • Clutch actuator position
    • Selector actuator position
    • Engagement actuator position
    • Key in travel position
    • Door switch status driver side
    • Brake pedal switch status
    • Electro-hydraulic group oil pressure
    • CAN line signal (position of accelerator pedal, engine torque, water temperature, etc.)
    • Gear change request from levers behind the steering wheel (flappy paddles)
    • +50 engine ignition.

    The interface with Engine management is also managed via CAN line's.

    To control the hydraulic gearshift actuation sub-system the TCU has:
    • 1 output to adjust the proportional flow-rate solenoid valve for clutch control
    • 2 outputs to adjust the proportional pressure solenoid valve for gear engagement control
    • 2 outputs to control the on/off solenoid valves to control selection
    • 1 output to control the electric pump
    • 1 output to control the ignition relay

    The hydraulic system has the task of the gear selection - engagement of the required gear under TCU software control.

    Basically it consists of:
    • A power group to pressurise the circuit
    • Two actuators to control the gear shaft
    • An actuator to control the clutch
    • Sensors for system monitoring by the control unit

    The hydraulic system has these functions:
    1. To supply the hydraulic energy needed to control the actuators
    2. Gear shaft control
    3. Clutch control

    The fundamental function of the hydraulic system is to supply the hydraulic energy to control the actuators (gear change). Therefore the possibility to change gear is tightly bound to the pressure of the oil in the circuit, with values between 45 and 55 bar.
    The main technical specifications that are necessary for the system to ensure correct operation are:

    • Hydraulic working pressure between 45 and 55 bar (there is a pressure relief valve to avoid system over-pressure)
    • Working temperature between -30°C and +125°C
    • Starting must also be possible with a temperature of -30°C
    • The pump flow rate must be 0.8l/min at 60°C
    • The accumulator volume must be 350 cm3 at 20°C (this value is important because it determines the discharge time)

    Gear Operation
    The TCU control unit, before each gear change, activates the clutch by a servo actuator and a solenoid valve (EV0) controlled by the TCU.

    The control function of the gear shaft takes place in these steps:

    • Selection lever activation
    • Transmission of the selection lever position to the control unit
    • Activation of engagement lever
    • Transmission of the engagement lever position to the control unit

    The components involved in the gear change are:

    • Selection actuator
    • Selection potentiometer
    • Wiring harness between selection potentiometer and sectioning connector
    • Selection solenoid valve EV3
    • Wiring harness between selection solenoid valve EV3 (gear selection range 1-2) and the sectioning connector
    • Selection solenoid valve EV4
    • Wiring harness between selection solenoid valve EV4 (gear selection range 5 - R) and the sectioning connector
    • Gear engagement actuator
    • Engagement potentiometer
    • Wiring harness between engagement potentiometer and sectioning connector
    • Engagement solenoid valve EV1 (to engage odd gears 1-3-5)
    • Wiring harness between engagement valve EV1 and the sectioning connector
    • Engagement solenoid valve EV2 (to engage even gears 2-4-R)
    • Wiring harness between engagement solenoid valve EV2 and sectioning connector.


    TCU Functional's;
    1. Gear selection lever switch
    2. Engine rpm sensor (CAN line)
    3. Car speed signal on CAN line from ABS
    4. Gear shift buttons
    5. Brake pedal switch
    6. Oil pressure sensor
    7. Door switch driver side
    8. Sport/Race button
    9. Gearbox input revs sensor
    10. Clutch position sensor
    11. Gear selection position sensor
    12. Gear engagement position sensor
    13. Motorised throttle case ( CAN line )
    14. Accelerator pedal potentiometer (CAN line )
    15. Pressure proportional solenoid valves (2)
    16. On-off solenoid valves (2)
    17. Flow rate proportional solenoid valve
    18. Electric pump
    19. Buzzer
    20. On-board panel
    21. Diagnostics socket
    22. Start enable relay
     
  4. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

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    It seems I have supplied CS TCU to two FChaters in this thread. I am glad to know both are happy with the upgrade.

    I originally bought all the CS TCUs for my team of 360 Challenge race cars. In the end the clutch engagement was too soft compared to the real Challenge TCUs. And we didn't have time to figure out the CS TCU launch control wiring before switching to 430C a few years ago.

    I guess I better hang on to the last CS TCU I have just in case I ever decide to get a street going 360F1 again in the future.
     
  5. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

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    Thanks Eddie. That's great info. I have a SD3, but was not aware of the clutch thickness setting before.
     
  6. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    Ahh..... pay it forward and let someone else play with it in the meantime :)
     
  7. Mattyrae

    Mattyrae Formula 3
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    Daniel at Ricambi said he was supposedly going to run a special on the CS TCU's like he did a few years ago. It's been like 6 months since the rumor was started. We need to get this rumor moved into reality. I am in like Flynn.
     
  8. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    More interesting from my perspective is Eric's words above......I should have some news from the CS TCU front in a couple of weeks ...
     
  9. torresmd

    torresmd Karting

    Aug 14, 2010
    103
    I was talking to someone at Cars and Coffee over the weekend specifically about the TCU upgrade and he told me that the CS TCU was the same as the 575M TCU. Not sure if this is true but I consider him quite knowledgeable about Fcars. Can anyone verify this and is there a significant price difference between the two TCU's?
     
  10. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    575 TCU hardware may be the same than CS TCU, but no chance the SW and its parameters are the same....
     
  11. torresmd

    torresmd Karting

    Aug 14, 2010
    103
    Ahh... OK that is what I thought.
     
  12. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    #62 eric355, Feb 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  13. Mattyrae

    Mattyrae Formula 3
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    Spill the bean. What is wrong?
     
  14. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Looks like its an old unit that's been re-flashed with later software and a new "MY06" sticker put over the top.
     
  15. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    Not exactly but close ...
    It is not an old unit, and I have not (yet!) modified the stickers.

    It WAS a F430 TCU (MY 06) ... it IS now a CS TCU and it works GREAT :D

    It costed me less than 700€ from ebay, I was lucky on this one ... but also several months of work to understand what must be done for a successfull conversion. EEPROM reflash or exchange is NOT the end of the story!
     
  16. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Huh!?

    Just looked up the pin out and the tcu's....

    Challenge Stradale TCU

    Pinout Connector A
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pin Description Signal
    01 Earth Power input
    02 Earth Power input
    03 Selection solenoid valve 4 control Power output
    04 - -
    05 - -
    06 - -
    07 - -
    08 - -
    09 - -
    10 - -
    11 - -
    12 - -
    13 - -
    14 - -
    15 - -
    16 - -
    17 - -
    18 - -
    19 - -
    20 - -
    21 - -
    22 - -
    23 - -
    24 - -
    25 - -
    26 Gear selection device (up) Digital input
    27 Power supply +30 Power input
    28 Power supply +15 Power input
    29 Selection solenoid valve 3 control Power output
    30 Selection solenoid valve 5 control Power output
    31 Pump relay control Digital output
    32 Coupling solenoid valve 2 control PWM output
    33 CAN line (-) Communication line
    34 Primary clutch potentiometer 1 Frequency output
    35 Secondary clutch potentiometer 1 Analogue input
    36 - -
    37 Serial line L Communication line
    38 Pick-up speed rate, gearbox input (+) Frequency input
    39 Gear-shifting potentiometer Analogue input
    40 Linear pressure sensor Analogue input
    41 Reverse gear light relay control Digital output
    42 Starter motor activation Digital output
    43 Clutch solenoid valve control PWM output
    44 Coupling solenoid valve 1 control PWM output
    45 CAN line (+) Communication line
    46 Primary clutch potentiometer 2 Frequency output
    47 Secondary clutch potentiometer 2 Analogue input
    48 Gearbox output r.p.m signal from tachometer Frequency input
    49 Serial line K Communication line
    50 Pick-up speed rate, gearbox input (-) Frequency input
    51 Gear-shifting potentiometer Analogue input
    52 - -

    Pinout Connector B
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pin Description Signal
    01 - -
    02 - -
    03 - -
    04 - -
    05 - -
    06 - -
    07 - -
    08 - -
    09 - -
    10 - -
    11 - -
    12 - -
    13 - -
    14 - -
    15 Gear selection device (Stand-by) Digital input
    16 Gear selection device (Down) Digital input
    17 Brake pedal switch Digital input
    18 Launch control Digital input
    19 - -
    20 - -
    21 Gear shifting and selection sensors' power supply Power output
    22 Reverse gear engagement lever Digital input
    23 - -
    24 Start-up in progress +50 -
    25 - -
    26 Driver door switch Digital input
    27 Pressure sensor power supply Power output
    28 - -


    F430 TCU

    Pinout Connector A
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pin Function
    01 Earth Power input
    02 Earth Power input
    03 Output: Gear selection solenoid valve, robotized gearbox
    04 - -
    05 - -
    06 - -
    07 - -
    08 - -
    09 - -
    10 - -
    11 - -
    12 - -
    13 - -
    14 - -
    15 Gearshift control cluster on steering wheel
    16 - -
    17 - -
    18 - -
    19 - -
    20 - -
    21 - -
    22 - -
    23 - -
    24 - -
    25 - -
    26 - -
    27 +30
    28 +15
    29 Output: Gear selection solenoid valve, robotized gearbox
    30 Output: Gear selection solenoid valve, robotized gearbox
    31 Unused
    32 Output: Gear engagement solenoid valve, robotized gearbox
    33 C CAN-L
    34 Clutch sensor
    35 Clutch sensor
    36 - -
    37 - -
    38 -Gearbox sensor
    39 Gear selection/engagement potentiometer
    40 Input: Pressure transducer
    41 Input: Reverse gear engagement switch
    42 - -
    43 Output: Clutch solenoid valve
    44 Output: Gear engagement solenoid valve, robotized gearbox
    45 C CAN-H
    46 Clutch sensor
    47 Clutch sensor
    48 Engine control node (NCM)
    49 K diagnosis line
    50 +Gearbox sensor
    51 Gear selection/engagement potentiometer
    52 - -


    Pinout Connector B
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pin Function
    01 - -
    02 - -
    03 - -
    04 - -
    05 - -
    06 - -
    07 - -
    08 - -
    09 - -
    10 - -
    11 F1 robotized gearbox acceleration sensor
    12 Input: Pressure sensor on clutch
    13 Ground: Gearshift control cluster on steering wheel; F1 robotized gearbox acceleration sensor;Reverse gear engagement control set
    14 Ground: Pressure transducer; Pressure sensor on clutch
    15 Gearshift control cluster on steering wheel
    16 Gearshift control cluster on steering wheel
    17 Input: Stop indicator switch (N.A.)
    18 Input: Launch control ecu
    19 - -
    20 - -
    21 - -
    22 Input: Reverse gear engagement control set
    23 - -
    24 +50
    25 Input: Electronically controlled gearbox lever
    26 Input: Front door lock motor (driver's side)
    27 - -
    28 - -



    From all of this its clear to see that if you just tried to 'use' it as it you'd need to do quite a bit of 're-wiring' since the pinout's are not 100% (deliberately I assume) backward compatible.

    I would assume that if you just splice the looms somehow the optimal RPM shift points of the 4.3 liter engine TCU would be different than for the 3.6? Or have you also re-flashed the F430 TCU to adjusting the shift points in the process?

    What other benefits does a F430 TCU yield over the regular 360 one?
     
  17. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    #67 eric355, Feb 19, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
    I knew about this apparent difference in the TCUs pin out but at the end it is not a problem at all.
    Of course, I didn't tried the F430 TCU as is on my car. Also, I didn't made any modification on the wiring loom. Nothing! It is a direct plug and play!

    What is really important in this conversion is that the hardware configuration of this F430 TCU (early ones) is the same as the hardware configuration of the CS TCU I was able to play with.
    CFC231F is all what matters for me to make the conversion. All the CFC231F TCUs whatever their origin are OK.
    The older 360 TCUs I had the opportunity to look at (an early 176552 or my 193263) use a CFC201F hardware which is not compatible with the memory mapping of the CS software.
     
  18. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    #68 eric355, Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just to complete my answer, which may not look very convincing, here is a set of side-by-side pictures which show that the hardware of the CS TCU (on the left) and the one of this F430 TCU (on the right) are indeed the same.
    Both are CFC231F, with the same PCB reference, same main processor (ZC439619VFT25), same main EEPROM (29F400BC), same second processor (SC509156MDW), same ...

    As a result, the very same software (CS) and the very same parameters (CS) in the very same hardware (CFC231F) lead to the wanted functionality (CS TCU). It works.

    The F430 software uses extra sensors (eg. clutch pressure sensor, ...) and for that, it activates, or uses differently, some inputs and outputs of the TCU which are not used on the CS. That's why the wiring seems to be different and not compatible between the 2.

    Oh, and BTW, the F430 software is very very similar to the CS one ...
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  19. Georgescott

    Georgescott Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2009
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    Let me save all you guys from reflashing I have a 360 stradale tcu to sell for $1900! Shipped anywhere in the US. Have heaps of carbon fibre too and even the stradale engine ecus if someone is interested :)
     
  20. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    Eric, If I understand this correctly you have managed to convert F430 F1 TCU to replicate the function of the CS TCU and therefore make it compatible for use in 360. Correct?

    If so well done indeed!
     
  21. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    I believe that's correct.

    Essentially they both share the same HARDWARE board and old embedded Motorola microcontroller. Some of the GPIO (General Purpose Input/Output) pins are reprogrammable in software to do different functions depending on the software flashed hence the reason why the wiring can be different on a CS than a F430 yet still work when using a different flash program..

    What Eric has discovered is deeply impressive and credit to him for working this out and publishing this for the community. It means you can convert an F430 TCU (easier and cheaper to buy due to much higher availability) into a CS TCU (well at least for the version he got).

    While this may not seem such a big thing right now in the future when a CS tcu go out of stock there will still be options to be able to replace broken tcu's when the go wrong (and they will go wrong).
     
  22. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    Thanks.
    Yes, you are correct :)
    My quest for the Grail is over now ... I will need another one soon !
     
  23. eric355

    eric355 Formula Junior
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    Thanks Trev!
    You know you have initiated my work on the subject. Not sure I would have tried that without your posts ;)
     
  24. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    :) Thanks

    Do you know if other substantially cheaper variants of board are s/w compatible, e.g. selespeed tcu's from Alfa's or other semi automatic Fiats that use?

    e.g.;
    CFC202F

    These older selespeed variants only seems to costs around $60 usd. Worth buying one just to see if the same moto chip is used!
     
  25. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    Genuine congratulations so. Well done indeed!
     

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