Champ Car/IRL primer: A few stupid questions

Cart - 2.65L V8 TT making 750hp
~1500lbs without driver

IRL - 3.0 L V8 making 650hp
~1500lbs without driver

 

ChampCar vs. F1 - At the peak of CART (mid-to-late 90's), they were much closer than they are today. F1 is still the pinnacle of essentially "unlimited" technology. Each F1 team builds their own chassis. Engines are naturally aspirated 3.0l gasoline powered V10, probably 800-900 or so HP, basically no limit except the engine has to last for two weekends of qualifying and racing. They rev to 18-20,000 RPM.

At CART's peak, there were 3 chassis manufacturers (Reynard, Lola, Eagle), 2 tire mfrs, and 4 engines (Illmor, badged as Mercedes and later Chevy, Cosworth, Honda, and later Toyota). The engines have been 2.65l turbocharged V8's running on methanol for quite some time now. At their peak, they were getting about 900 hp at 16,000 rpm (unoficially from Honda and Toyota).

In 1994, Tony George, the owner of Indianapolis Motor Speedway, had a huge disagreement with the owners of then-CART. Various reasons have been stated in the press, but it seems the most logical explanation was that he felt threataned by the owners of CART. He didn't feel like he had enough input into North American open-wheel racing. All the time CART had been growing, and he felt that it was going to eclipse the largest race in the world at the time, the Indy 500. The result was the founding of IRL, starting with the 1995 season. Opening up Indy to the Brickyard 400 in 1994 guaranteed that he would have the cash to essentially finance it for some time. IRL's stated goals at the time were to return to the "roots" of American open-wheel, and to give the guys coming up through midgets and dirt tracks a destination series to go to. IRL started with basically CART specs, but soon transitioned to a stock-block NA V8. Oldsmobile and Nissan were two early engine manufacturers in IRL.

Things got more interesting when people started defecting CART for the IRL. Engine manufacturers went first (Toyota and Honda), followed by team owners, enticed by sweet, subsidised engine deals from T&H. They could essentially move their racing operations over, T&H are subsidising teams (led by Team Andretti Green, the largest benefactors of Honda yen), and have their race teams paid for. At the time, they were waiting and hoping for CART to die.

CART was the old publicly traded entitiy that ran the series and sanctioned the races. In the 90's, open wheel was huge and was starting to rival NASCAR, not to mention F1, in popularity. To finance their expansion, they offered an IPO. Unfortunately, all this led to was the major shareholders of CART getting rich (like Penske). They never really had effective management in place, and one of the many things that led to their downfall was the engine manufacturers having too much power. At their peak, T&H were reported to have spent $100M each on their CART programs. They are reportedly still spending the same amount on IRL, but play to much smaller crowds and TV ratings. Them leaving CART essentially drove the company into bankruptcy.

Which leads to all the merger talk. Obviously, the largest american open-wheel race is the Indy 500. IRL has Indy. ChampCar is still huge in Canada, Mexico, and Australia, drawing weekend crowds of over 150,000 in those places. The closest thing that Champ Car has to Indy is their race in Long Beach each spring. It's obvious that open-wheel racing would be much better off with one series. The problem is that Tony George has stated that the only way there will be one series is if he runs it.

The old CART assets were bought by Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven (with a minority stake owned by Paul Gentillozi), both astute businessmen and both billionaires. Forsythe loves road racing and doesn't care much for Tony George. Kalkhoven (who make most of his money running JDS Uniphase) came into ChampCar as a team owner, decided to "save" the series and buy it in partnership with Forsythe. CART was literally ready to die, Tony George could have bought the assets from Indianapolis bankruptcy court and killed off the series. Kalkhoven and Forsythe entered a competing bid with a plan to keep the series going and pay off its debt, so CART was reborn as ChampCar. K & F have also been making other strategic aquisitions, they also bought Cosworth Racing, Pi Technologies, and they basically bought the entire Long Beach race from Dover Motorsports. Their aim is to put the IRL out of business. Believe it or not, even though IRL has Indy, it could happen. Chevy has already stated that they are leaving, Toyota is already in Craftsman Trucks and wants to get into NASCAR, and Honda will not be left holding the bag.

Back to the cars - after T&H left, Ford/Cosworth was the only engine left. The cars are now basically "spec". Everyone runs the same Cosworth 2.65l turbo, but it's been detuned to last 1000 miles. Redline is now about 10,500 rpm, it puts out 650 hp, but there is a "push-to-pass" button that gives them 30 seconds of extra boost, about 50 hp worth. Everyone runs a Lola chassis, even though there are still some Reynards around that are legal. There has not been any aero or other development on the chassis in a few years.

Believe it or not, there's a lot more to the story. Hope I've answered your questions. Come on up to Milwaukee this weekend for the Champ Car race!

 

One other thing - current F1 vs. current Champ Car - They both race at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in Montreal, ChampCar is nearly 2 seconds slower, mostly due to the handling differences. F1 cars are much more nimble and can carry a lot more speed in the corners due to higher downforce.

 

Well said DMC! You didn't really leave anything out.

My recollection of CART running at Montreal in 2001 was that Michael Andretti's fastest race lap was a little under 4 seconds slower than Michael Schumacher's. If I am correct in this (I'd have to go back and check my tape), I think that nowadays the difference will be even greater-maybe 5 secs. lap.

I can't stand Tony George for what he did. CART used to be awesome to follow. 1990-2000 were all fantastic!

 

Wow, DCM, your a wealth of knowledge. I'd like to get your opinion on my observation:
IRL is oval racing and CHAMP is road courses. This year IRL is running road courses.(for the first time?) Along with the uncertianty of Long Beach. (Which now I guess has been resolved, but earlier in the year I thought Long Beach was a gonner).

To me this seems like IRL is preparing to take over CHAMP.

But in your post, I get the idea you think CHAMP will take over IRL.

What do you think about IRL running road courses? do you concur that they are doing it to prepare for the demse of CHAMP?

Thanks for yor thoughts.

 

CART at it's best was a dynamic series that would race on Superspeedway ovals (ala IMS), road courses (road america), temp street courses (long beach) and short ovals (milwaukee, pennsylvania). It was great to follow the series because it was literally a very different race every weekend. Some drivers were better than others at certain types of tracks, some cars/teams were better here than there etc. It was great to watch. The best American Open wheel racing (were they to merge back) would be a hybrid series. I mean, F1 already has ultra high-tech road racing locked up.

Tony George is happy to have F1 because it makes him some (not alot) of money and it probably makes CART look worse (in his mind).

Yes, CART is boring now. It used to be full of great & good drivers, great tracks and it was a diverse calendar. It sucks now in comparison to 10 years ago. See, the whole thing is that CART made the Indy 500 what is today. The Indy 500 is bigger than CART (if they're separated) though, and greedy Tony George tries to capitalize on this. He's a pig.

 

IRL can't run road courses anywhere near as well as CART. American racing fans are going to have to dumb-up even more if they are going to follow that crap. IRL is simply trying everything to find what works. Tony George perhaps has finally gotten it into his feeble mind that quite a few American open-wheel fans want road racing, not round and round NASCRAP!

 

They're not trying to rival F1 so much as they're just putting on a race where their sponsors need for exposure. No one really seems to talk about F1 being the best except for the NASCAR guys. But, I don't really think CHampCar thinks of themselves as in the same league. Maybe 6-10 years ago it would've been interesting to see them race each other, but I still think F1 would crush a champ car from the golden era-sheerly on braking alone.

All these series are trying to do is make money. There certainly is NO benevolence or altruism at work!

 

As for a series competing with F1 in the US, F1 needs to compete with NASCAR first. NASCAR is king here, not F1. ChampCar races in Australia (which is one of "crown jewels" of the series.) and is heading to Seoul.

As for someone who says about the "same specs", I love ChampCar isn't F1. Nigel Mansell and Wilson (driver this year), the series is much more a drivers series, with manual shifting, stragety of the tubro booster they get so many per race, ect. ChampCar still races at Milwaukee (this Sunday at 1:00 on CBS), as well as Vegas., they just or are nearing the purchase of Long Beach (which will always draw a crowd regardless of the series), runs on airports at Edmonton (new this year) and Cleveland, have a wide popularity in Mexico, Canada and Australia. It's slowly building backup the fan base here. The series still has that diversity of street circuits, airports, road coarses, and ovals.

About two years ago, it look like CART/ChampCar was losing, now it has IRL on the ropes. The only thing IRL really has going for it is Indy 500, which is not what it use to be and George killed the tradition of the race. ChampCar has brillant, passionate management with deep managements.

As for a merger, ChampCar's owners will not let George run the show. Unless George changes his stance, don't expect anything to happen. If IRL didn't have Danica this weekend, do you think IRL would of got alot of attention?

 

Dola...

Anyone find the IRL cars to look really ugly?

 

Yeah, the cars are fugly. When I see an on-board shot, it looks like the front of a boat.

Cleveland is a great venue. I would love to see F1 run a track with that many passing lanes!

 

Fastest lap from a CART car was done by DaMatta at a 1:18.959 and the fastest lap by and F1 car which Ralf Schumacher did in 2004 was 1:12.275. DaMatta did that back in 2002 when they first ran Montreal ever since then the times have been getting slower. I agree with you I think CART's peak was 2000, Montoya's last season. I think at one time CART was at the same level as F1. You had guys like Montoya, Mansell and even Jacques compete in CART because they felt it was as competitive. Now you see drivers who couldn't make to F1 or leave F1, compete in CART.

 

There was also rumors that Bernie Eccelstone was going to purchase CART from Forsythe and Kalkhoven. He wanted to make CART a feeder series to F1. His plan was to replace F3000(GP2 series) with CART and run along with the F1 calendar. I got this info from my buddy who started the Stars of Tomorrow with Bobby Rahal. Stars of Tomorrow is a karting Series that was sanctioned by CART.

 

Great synopsis of the situation from all!! Of course, there is much more to the story. Tony George and his family (the Hulman's) have controlled the Indy Motor Speedway for a long time. They only had one event per year at this massive facility with 300,000-some seats and room for another 200,000 infield maniacs. NASCAR needed more Northern exposure, so the "Brickyard" race was good for both. George also probably felt threatened by lack of control of both Open-wheel groups at the major-league level since they could run just fine without him, but he needed them to survive. When the IRL was founded (by George), CART (Chanpionship Auto Racing Teams)was out of control on costs (especially engines) and only the richest of the rich could win (Penske!). Ironically, CART was founded to compete/oust USAC as the major sanctioning body for big-league open-wheel cars in the US. USAC (United States Auto Club) was an anachronistic bunch out of touch with nearly everything, IMHO. So George offers his playground (and rules, of course) to a lower-cost home-brewed series of similar cars. Then, here comes Bernie with his exclusive dog-and-pony show that wouldn't run at a REAL race track like Road America or the Glen, but would put together what is essentially a street-course on the grounds of the IMS. Anyone smell money yet???? Verrrrry interesting!!! It is still good old fashioned open-wheel racing regardless of all the politics and silliness, even if it lacks the outrageous high-tech of F-1. Even the ovals are pretty exciting--sub-20 second laps on a 1-mile like Phoenix, oh that's only a little over 180 AVERAGE!!! Hmmmm....

 

So 6.684 seconds/lap slower. At that rate the Champ Car would be lapped by the Formula 1 car in just under 12 laps. Over the course of a full Grand Prix, the Champ Car would be lapped several times.

 

Performance wise, how would Bernie's vision of Champ Car compare with the new "A1 Grand Prix: The World Cup of Motorsport" series that begins during the winter later this year?

I take it that GP2 is roughly equivalent if not a bit faster than the F3000 series it replaced?

 

The real entertainment will be at Indy this year for the F1 race when the IRL Infinity pro series cars will run on the road race track.

Have your cameras ready it should be a crash fest. (As if last years F1 race was not a crash fest)

Rob

 

True enough. Champ Cars are really the more versatile of the two, since the chassis was developed when they were still running superspeedways, short ovals, road, and street courses. The IRL chassis was developed to be oval-only, they just added road courses this year. They really don't turn as well as Champ Cars, and they don't get off the corners as well. I believe I have seen somewhere that they also have a higher center of gravity.

While you have a good point, Champ Car does show off the driver's skills, and the team's. Since the cars are basically identical, the team that gets the race setup correct and has the best driver should win the race. Since Champ Car has a spec engine, they have eliminated all driver aids, i.e. traction and launch control, so it's really about what the driver can do with the car.

Long Beach has been resolved, Kalkoven and Forsythe now own it. IRL has been doing everything to be more CART-like in order to try and gain an audience. They have all the big teams and engine manufacturers, and they still can't get decent attendance outside of Indy and a couple other races. They are so far now from their original "vision", it's crazy.

I think IRL is crazy to run the Glen in it's current configuration. They are definitely trying to kill CART and were setting themselves up to do so. The problem for Tony George is that he is now up against two experienced, self-made businessmen (Kalkhoven and Forsythe). The three times that he has gone head-to-head with him , he has come out looking like a fool. I think people are starting to realize that IRL is really about Tony George's ego, and that there is no chance that the leauge can prosper with him in charge. He's pissed away hundreds of millions of his family's fortune with no return.

F1 vs. CART - the 2 seconds was off the top of my head, and I was way off. From last season - fastest race lap for F1 in Montreal was by Reubens Barrichello at 1:13.622, fastest ChampCar race lap was Sebastien Bourdais at 1:20.840, over 7 seconds a lap slower. We don't have engine or tire wars anymore, leading to lower lap times, but IMO the racing is as good as ever. Like I said before, it's really all about the driver now.

At their peak they were. They actually go overseas for 2 races this year (South Korea and Australia), and have 2 races in Mexico and 3 in Canada. At their peak, they were starting to threaten F1 in Europe, which, I'm sure, Bernie didn't like.

The "Bernie buying CART" rumor was rampant in the 2003 season, when the old CART was busy burning through their ~$100M war chest putting on their season (they had invested a lot of the money from the IPO and had cash to spend). That's not going to happen now that Kalkhoven and Forsythe own it.

 

This news is pretty old, this happened before F3000 changed to GP2. You are correct GP2 is way faster than F3000. As for the A1, I think they were just creating that series right around when the rumors started coming out about Bernie purchasing CART.

 

Well put. ChampCar does very well in the foreign countries, such as Mexico, Canada, Australia and hopefully, South Korea. If IRL didn't Danica this year in Indy, I highly doubt people would of cared.