News

Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by jawsalfa, Jun 28, 2008.

  1. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    #1 jawsalfa, Jun 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Several months ago a Ferrari serial numbered 1C/10S was on display at the Palm Springs Desert Concours. Many interesting points were brought forward by the FC community regarding the various stampings on the car, its overall set-up, presence of or lack of suspension components, chassis rail bracing layout, and provenance of the car itself. To be clear, I am not and do not purport to be an authority of any kind when it comes to Ferrari. I haven’t the slightest clue as to the “orientation of the magnetos” on the early cars nor do I know (other than what has been previously posted) the technical specifics of the early Ferrari set-up/configuration. What I have done is read the thoughtful comments by many on this board, and with my father’s blessing, have sought to join the dialog with photos to help clarify the history (where it is known) and provide additional detail when possible. We seek, like many of you, to better understand where 1C/10S falls in the annals of Ferrari history. Again, we are not purporting the car to be anything that it’s not. We have decided to openly post pictures for the Ferrari Community to view in the hopes of solving what’s turned out to be an interesting riddle—What is 1C/10S?

    To clarify the record, my father bought this motto bodied 1C/10S in Albany, NY in 1969-70. The current 166 engine was sold with the car; however, was not actually in the car at the time of sale. The car has remained in our family since its purchase and has not, but for an engine rebuild in the early 1990s, been restored. My father used 1C/10S for the better part of 20 years as a VSCCA racer. In fact, going back as far as the early 70s the car was registered in the VSCCA registration log books as #1C.

    While some in the Community have suggested that the car was, in fact, #031S—the car doesn’t bear any marking supporting this assertion nor does the known provenance of 031S match that of 1C/10S. It is certainly likely that the article that was transcribed and kindly posted (#226-#228) by B. Noon in the thread titled “01C or 02C the first?” is the source of much of this confusion. To be sure, many significant inaccuracies exist in the article—almost too many to cite.

    As far as stampings on 1C/10S go… the only stamping that my father found prior to prepping the car for Palm Springs was a smallish 1C stamping on the chassis near the front left suspension arm (not the one photographed and posted earlier). It wasn’t until Bill Noon crawled under the car to inspect the chassis that the previously photographed and posted larger 1C and 10S stamping was discovered in the "correct" location. The car had been covered with nearly 40 years of grease/grime and black paint on the chassis. It was only until the chassis was pressure washed to clean up most of this debris that the 1C/10S stampings could be viewed. These stampings had been obscured all these years.

    Since, my father has found numerous additional “1C” stampings on the car in various locations. Both brake drums have 1C stamped on them along with various (presumably foundry/casting) stampings. In addition, all of the brake shoes have 1C stamped on them along with “SA”/”SI” or “DA”/”DI”. Additionally, the drums bear the casting marking “125” with another number following. The wheels themselves are interesting in that they appear quite early.

    A closer look at both the front and rear suspension photos is interesting as one might note that they appear to have been modified from original. Provisions for the rear sway bar are supported by clear alterations of the rear chassis and there have been obvious changes to the front suspension (presumably to support a later suspension configuration). By probing with a bent piece of wire under the added rear shock absorber mount, one can easily feel that there is a hole completely through the longitudinal frame rail. Bill Noon was kind enough to shed light on this issue in one of his posts after photographing it in Palm Springs and commented:

    (Post #202 on 3-04-08 in the original “01C or 02C the first?” thread)
    “As for the frame itself, I do not understand how anyone could confuse this frame with one of the early first versions. It has none of the features or mounting brackets or drilled front and rear pick-up point holes or the rear sway bar assembly points.”

    Please see photos (herein) and discern for yourselves if there is evidence of modifications to, and provisions for, the aforementioned suspension mods. Given B. Noon’s limited time with the car at the show, it’s certainly understandable how these interesting suspension artifacts might have been overlooked.

    Next, I’d like to address the “X” or wishbone frame-rail configuration and offer some texture as to what can be seen from below. As you will see from the photo, the oval tubed wishbone configuration is easily seen. The lateral “cross member” is also seen in the photo; however, what isn’t easily seen is that the quality of the weld for both the oval and square (lateral) components are the same (or as near as anyone could visually tell). To put further context to this statement, the other aforementioned modifications (front/rear suspension) have obviously been done at a later date and by someone other than the person that performed the work on the chassis. Again, this is just an observation and I am just relaying what can be seen upon visual inspection and through viewing the affixed photos.

    Lastly, I have included additional photos of the stamping on the gear box, the steering box ("M02"), and one of the three weber carbs.
    That's it for now. Looking forward to a lively discussion. Best to all, JAW
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Very, Very interesting Post! The brakes especially. The "S" and "D" refer to left and right. The 125 Casting is also interesting as 002C's brakes are different. The Brakes with 1C stampings are very interesting especially as those stampings are also on the chassis.

    Hummmm
     
  3. t walgamuth

    t walgamuth Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2005
    850
    I enjoyed very much the pictures. I know nothing about the history of it but the phrase comes to mind..."Its George Washingtons actual hatchet that he chopped the cherry tree down with.....the handle has been replaced four times and the head twice". It certainly looks like an old race car that has been used as intended.

    Thanks for sharing them with us.

    Tom W
     
  4. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,704
    Santa Fe, NM
    regardless of the twists and turns this discussion will undoubtedly take, you and your father are to be commended for commencing/facilitating this investigation!

    Bryan
     
  5. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    Thank you. To be candid, it is certainly with an amount of trepidation that we embark on this journey. Who knows what will turn up? Time will tell...
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 16, 2007
    5,111
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    I too look forward to this journey. I wish to add my commendation to you and your father for undertaking this.

    Are you going to be going through the engine anytime soon? I expect that one of the issues will be the internal casting codes. It may become very intruiging on how many different iterations of older and relatively newer parts that this car became in its earliest life/lives.

    Are you already working with multiple of the well recognized experts and having them verify the components and markings?

    Jeff
     
  7. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    #7 jawsalfa, Jun 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2008
    What casting marks, if any, appear on 002C's brake drums? Are there any stampings on the brake shoes themselves? Thanks for checking.
     
  8. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    #8 jawsalfa, Jun 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2008
    We believe that a good first step is to hear/read the thoughts of those here in the FC Community. Perhaps in time, and should significant questions continue to persist, we might consider other routes--including ones you have suggested.
    Best,
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #9 Napolis, Jun 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2008

    I didn't see any cast in numbers on her brakes. I haven't opened them up to look but at some point I will. There are a lot of assembly stampings on 002C but they seem to be a series of single/double/triple dots as is often the custom on older Ferrari's.
    002C's brakes seem later than yours as they have cooling screens built into them.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on the 1C stampings that are on both the Brakes and the chassis? Any history on 10 S???
     
  10. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
    6,415
    Etceterini Land
    Full Name:
    Dr.Stuart Schaller
    As you mention, the brakes seem older than on your car. I would tend to agree, and think there may have been a lot more changes from the actual creation of the first 125 to the time of the 166 than we are aware of. I believe part of this car to be older than yours, but just how much is questionable. Is there enough left of 1C to call this 1C? I have nothing on 10S.
     
  11. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    What was #1C? Anyone?
     
  12. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 16, 2007
    5,111
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    If the "common wisdom" is correct 1C this is the Holy Grail. 1C should equal the very first Ferrari ever constructed. Look at the various books and see the photo of Enzo in the factory courtyard testing the first car (no body) with the workers standing around.

    Even proving that your car has an assortment of individual parts from the beginning will be incredibly significant. Of course this will also be why getting a wide consensus on provenance will be important.

    Jeff
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I thought that car was 01C not 1C???????????????????????? Stu do you have anything on 1C?

    Best
     
  14. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
    6,415
    Etceterini Land
    Full Name:
    Dr.Stuart Schaller
    #14 dretceterini, Jun 29, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2008
    No, I have nothing on 1C or 10S. I'm not sure exactly what this car is, but it seems that certain parts of it are authentic Tipo 125..the brakes (for example), IMO, are of an earlier style than what is currently on your car....

    I asuume this is a different car than 01C/010I. If not, I'm totally confused.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Yes it's a different car. Does anyone think it's possible that "01C" was really "1C" and this is the restamped ("10 S") Chassis of the first Ferrari? The Brakes are compelling to me. They definitely seem VERY early are are stamped "1C" as well.
     
  16. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
    6,415
    Etceterini Land
    Full Name:
    Dr.Stuart Schaller

    I think it is possible that some parts on this car are from the first Ferrari built. If there is enough to really consider this the first Ferrari is another question.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Agree totally and I don't think the owner is trying to do anything but to get to the bottom of the mystery of what it is and what it is not.

    Hope U R Well!!
     
  18. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    #18 jawsalfa, Jun 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2008
    Exactly! As I wrote in the preamble, we only seek to understand where in the history of Ferrari this car belongs. I only hope that those who may have pertinent information will come forward to join the dialog. Thanks in advance.
     
  19. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
    1,424
    UK
    Full Name:
    Will Tomkins
    If the 'some parts' include the brake drums from the first Ferrari built then the fact that the chassis stamp looks like the same as the brake stamps makes it look like the chassis needs to be seriously considered as possibly the first too.
     
  20. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Thread of the year ....
     
  21. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2004
    10,911
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Peter den Biggelaar
    Maybe it's worth looking at the very first "Ferrari", the AAC? I suspect there could be similarities in brakes etc. Just guessing though.
     
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    The typo 125 casting numbers are interesting. Does the number 1C mean anything to you?

    Best
     
  23. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    #23 jawsalfa, Jun 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  24. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
    1,424
    UK
    Full Name:
    Will Tomkins
    Could you tell us what the number of the 166 engine is? Sorry if it's in the previous thread but there's a lot to read through...
     
  25. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

    Mar 2, 2008
    82
    Chevy Chase, DC
    Full Name:
    John W.
    #25 jawsalfa, Jun 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    From an earlier post... "The engine is a late 1950 to early 1951 standard 166 motor. It is sequentially the 160th engine built."

    I have attached a photo of the stamping which I believe to be the source of this assertion.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     

Share This Page