Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

The Auto Avio 815 has a totally different chassis and motor. The 815 is really more Nardi than Ferrari. The brakes may be similar. It's been at least 20 years since I examined Righini's 815, and it was nothing more than a cursory examination.

As to this car, I don't think I would change anything. The body, although from another car, is period. The engine is also period.

Even if the bodies of 01C/010I, 002C, and this car were all removed, and the cars were placed side by side, I doubt if anyone could say with any absolute certainty what came first. We just
don't have enough period documents, and there is no one left who was there.

 

Running on the edge of my knowledge, but I *THINK* that internal engine numbers were consistently used starting from 212-engines. Neither would the production run of an earlier engine type allow for such a high number...

Ferrari built something like 110 212 Inters and Exports. They seem to have numberted the blocks using even numbers starting from #2 or so and running up to #220 or so. Same numbering system from odd numbered Inters and even numbered Exports, and the numbers I've been able to collect hit very accurately. Seen from this point #160 would hit serial numbers somewhere in the ball park of serial numbers 0231..0235. Could this be original unit of 0233EU?

I presume the chassis number provision on right rear of block does not carry a number?

More later, Kare

 

When the car was acquired was this engine refered to as a later replacement engine or as the original engine but not installed?

What are the recollections/documents on the car as represented by the seller upon your acquisition? Where parts claimed to be all original, stories of elements already replaced, etc. This is not to say that those representations were accurate but it does maybe give clues to chase down. This could be important if representations about updates had occurred prior to your stewardship.

Jeff

 

It is amazing, I have never seen so many "1C" stamps together!

 

IMHO the 1 in 1C and the 1 is 10S were made by the same stamp...

 

That's a pretty loaded statement. Are you insinuating that they were made at the same time? They do look similar, but of course those stamps might have been around a long time.


Peter

 

Here's the thing. I think they were made by the same stamp font. I also think that the current owner didn't make them. I do think that someone stamped the brakes which are definitely older that 002C's 1C and the chassis 1C and using the same or a similar stamp 10 S likely at a later date. I don't think they are a recent stamping as evidenced by the 40 year old log book.

Let's say this chassis was reused and restamped. How do we know that the car in the courtyard was stamped 01C and not 1C and that at a later time the chassis was reused and restamped 10 S not 010I? Is there any absolutely irrefutable evidence/ proof that the first Ferrari was stamped 01C not 1C and that it was later stamped 010I not 10 S?

 

It really looks like those stamps have been on there a long time. I also believe before the current owner got it. If anyone had stamped them to try and produce the 'First Ferrari', I am sure the car would have been claimed as such many years ago, or otherwise why stamp it, and also why not stamp it 01C as would be expected?

 

Are there any stampings other than the size on the wheels? I may very well be wrong, but thought that 015 was the only car so equipped.

 

Gearbox 166S N43 8x40 is a close match to gearbox in 166 Inter 0079S; that one is stamped 166S N37 8x40.

 

Good points here. Ferrari chassises thru the ages had their chassis numbers stamped in one place only[ yes, there are probably an exception to this here and there].Chassis numbers did not appear on things like brake drums and shoes etc. What does the number on the steering box tell you? With every conceivable modification and rebuild done to these cars often the steering box is the only major original part left on a car.My theory at the mement is that someone got into the famous "junk yard" behind the factory and collected parts that were then assembled into one rolling chassis. The 1C/10S stampimgs were stamped to try to authenticate the complete unit as one original.Your obsertvation that all the 1C stamping look the same is a good one.My theory also is that whoever did this 40+ years ago was just having a good time and wasn't out to fool anyone.These cars back then were not of great value and someone put a lot of work into this project. Could have been a mechanic/builder at the factory who had access to the "junk pile" and put this car together at home to have some fun with. I like to take a positive approach to these things when possible and it is nice to have the current owner opening up the discussion on this car.The investigations, discussions and theories will continue and we probably will never know the real story.But remember the recent mystery of My old Ferrari{?] which seemed to have reached a dead end but has now been identified as 0124.And isn't this really what it is all about.So, how about that steering box??? Just one man's opinion. tongascrew

 

The steering box is a good point. Anyone have any idea about that???

 

Another aproach to the number stamped on all the parts:

The factory re-used several early chassis and updated them to later specs. Would there be a possibility that the parts were stamped this way at the factory when taken OFF the original chassis so as to know where they came from? With the rapid development of the cars and the tiny production figures, to me that would make it a sensible thing to do.

 

Are there any other known early cars that have the numbers stamped on the brake drums?

 

Stamping parts doesn't surprise me. 0854 has 0854 stampings on various parts for example. If you had several cars of the same typo in the pits it makes sense to stamp assemblies so as not to mix them up. The issue here is "1C". While "01C" has for many years been assumed to be the chassis number of the first Ferrari I have never heard of "1C" before this car. "10 S" seems to be a mystery as well as I have never seen any mention of that chassis number before this car either.

This could simply be the ultimate "Bitsa" that someone stamped "1C" for some reason. The chassis does look to be original Ferrari. It has been modified over the years. The brakes IMO are Typo 125. The question remains what chassis is this????

 

Exactly. The interesting thing here is that this car was disassembled - or thought to be disassembled in a place where the risk of mixing parts up was present - and was identified by number 1C at that time.

It is also possible that somebody then created a funny serial number (10S) so that the little suspecting customer could not connect back to factory and be informed that his brand new racing car was really built in 1946 or so - and hear everybody in the back ground rolling on floor laughing.

It would also be interesting to know where this chassis came from. I think the Motto body was removed from 002/C when that car was rebodied for Carl Bross in 1969 or so. The body was then reputedly sold to Henry Desormeau who may have sold to Ed Williman. This is supported by the fact that Desormeau lived in Latham NY and Williman bought in Albany, NY. FWIW, Latham is only a few miles away in the outskirts of Albany - or something like that. The only inaccuracy in this story seems to be that whoever recorded it missed or forgot to mention that somewhere along the way the body was installed on a chassis. It would be really interesting to know where that chassis came from. My primary suspect would be Bross; he had many Ferraris in his collection including many early cars. A chopped project chassis could easily have been included.

Some people have assumed that this would be the long lost chassis 0016/M, but I don't think so. I think we can also eliminate 031/S at this point for good. It would make little sense to part out a car, sell engine & gearbox to one person, then sell body to somebody else and then get a new body and a new engine so that the car could be sold off. I think this also makes it likely that 031/S was just parted out and the chassis was scrapped.

Best wishes, Kare

 

I agree. The body is definitely 002C's Motto Body.

Here's the question. Was 1C stamped by someone other than Ferrari when all the parts were dissembled? Bross? Or was 1C stamped by Ferrari? That is the REAL question. Is it possible that the first car was 1C not 01C??? Or was the 1C stamped in the sixties? Stan/Bross/Bamford were all looking for the "First" Ferrari and many of these cars/parts passed through these guys.
I remember Stan thinking that odd numbers were unlucky so Enzo started with even numbers. He definitely sold 002C as the "First" at one time even though it is the third one produced. Was 1C a Nowack attempt? Could this be 031S as thought cut up/re-stamped 1C???? Was the 10 S a further attempt to make people think this was the first Ferrari reused/re-stamped??

Bill Noon stated that Ferrari records show "01C" was reused/re-stamped 010I. The Classiche Plate is stamped that way. Is Ferrari correct?

Best

 

The problem is that there are questions about all of this including 01C/010I:

"I want to listen! So, I have spoken to this individual and he confirms what Tom says. His story is quite interesting and probably throws up more questions than answers.
He says that when 010I came into his possession (in the 1960s) there were NO stamps on the chassis. In order to register the car in England, and to export it, the chassis had to be stamped. This was not a forgery (unless one wants to look at it that way) in as much as it wasn't done to try and pass off the car as something it wasn't. The car was known to be 010I and stamping the chassis was a means of establishing its legal identity.
Apparently the first stamping was incorrect and the chassis had to be stamped again.
Nathan

If this person is to be believed the 01C under the 010I was a mistake (01C) that this person made in the 60ies and "corrected"
(010I) in the sixties "as a means of establishing its legal identity".

The 125 brakes were discarded, salvaged, and mounted at some point but even though they are stamped 1C it doesn't mean they came off of 1C. They may be 01C's 125 brakes or 02C's 125 brakes.

The Bottom line remains is is there any proof that the first car was definitely stamped 01C by Ferrari? Is it possible it was stamped 1C?

Ferrari and other's for many years has referred to the first car as 01C. Could this be wrong????????

 

Anyone have any idea what the number 68222 next to the 125 means (if anything)?

For years we have been relying on mainly on documents to to derive the history of these early cars, while knowing full well that docuemnts didn't always match the actual car (or parts) that were being exported.

I'm not sure if we have enough photos, or know the absolute date of those photos, to know with certainty what chassis style came first, even if we actually stripped all 3 cars of their coachwork and put them side by side.


I, for one, would like to see plan view photos of all 3 chassis, so a reasonable guess could be made made.

 

I'm not saying it's significant, but I just saw that John Godfrey in 'The Complete Ferrari' has the first 2 chassis as 1C & 2C. He puts the '0' or '00' in front of all the later numbers. I wonder where he got that from?

 

Is his thrid chassis 002C???

 

He goes:
125 C & Sport: 1C, 2C

159: 2C, 3C - ''One new car 3C, second car most likely an updating of the original cycle-fendered car 1C'' (paraphrased) Meaning 1C turned into 2C!
Don't ask me....

166 Spyder Corsa: 002C, 004C, 006C, 008C, 010I - 108I

166 Sport: 001S, 003S

166 MM: 0002M, 0004M etc