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Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by wolftalk, Oct 17, 2004.

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  1. wolftalk

    wolftalk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2004
    367
    san franciso area
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    phil
    #1 wolftalk, Oct 17, 2004
    ok, if you are a firm believer in the "buy the best tools and they will last forever" approach, skip the rest of this - especially if you believe that snap-on pliers are the only proper way to remove the coolant tank overflow hose clamp.

    While wandering around a tradeshow today, I saw a number of manufacturers displaying all sorts of tools. That got me recalling unpleasant times trying to find a needed tool halfway through a job, and sometimes resorting to paying rather steep prices for things I'll use only one or twice in my life.

    So, if the following kinds of things could purchased in small enough quantities, would you want to buy them?:
    • forged metric combination wrenches in sizes 19-32+mm, individually or in sets. I like satin/matte finish myself, but the usual bright finish abounds. used on oil cooler and cooler hoses, a/c lines
    • larger size hex bit sockets (12-14mm or whatever is needed for the transmission/oil drain plugs)
    • flarenut wrenches in certain sizes - brake lines or bleed screws (if you don't have deepwell sockets)
    • crows foot wrenches, especially box or flare end
    • ring nut sockets, though I didn't actually see any, I was pretty assured they could be made...assuming they had any idea what I was talking about. transmission input shaft, air pump pulley on camshaft, and something else I forget...maybe timing pulleys?
    • thin speed/gear wrenches, assuming some could be found with fine gearing and aren't complete crap

    much of this stuff is harbor freight quality (which doesn't necessarily mean bad). In fact, HF had a booth at the show, though I don't really know why since they are buyers not sellers. It was kinda entertaining to see who HF gets it from (and sears, ace hardware, costco, pep boys, etc). If the stuff can be gotten at places like HF, then there's no reason to consider it. Most of the things I listed above I had trouble finding.

    The other advantage of cheap tools is you don't hesitate much to experiment with them, like melting a 90 degree bend into a wrench so you can hook the alternator bolt from the outside.

    thoughts or other things you either winced when paying for or just couldn't get easily?

    phil

    p.s. plenty of people selling bearings that looked like tensioners
     
  2. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    #2 ernie, Oct 17, 2004
    I have gotten lots of tools from HF. The last thing I got from them was a set of allen sockets, that I used to remove the bolts holding the axles in place. As some know these thing are on TIGHT! I had no problem, and nothing broke. The whole set cost me $10. I when to Sears and they wanted $6 just for one allen socket. HF also has a life time warranty on it tools. So if it had busted I would have just taken it back, gotten my money, and got the price one. I have also gotten a puller from them, that I used to remove an idler bearing. The majority of my tools are Craftsman, but sometimes you have no choice but to buy other tools. For example, I needed a crimper for the band clamps that hold the cv boots in place. Sears didn't have one and I could not find one in the catalog, so I had to use a different brand. Just because it is expensive doesn't mean it is better, and the best tool for the job is the one that gets it done..
     
  3. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
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    Gianluca Chegai
    #3 Gianluca, Oct 17, 2004
    I love the HB socket Allen wrenches. Used them with an impact for the half-shaft bolts (very, very tight) and they performed flawlessy. I thought they would have been a one time use only but they are still going strong.

    HF "s" wrenches have saved me many times. Best tool I ever bought.

    There are some tools from HF that are not worth much, however.

    All in all, I will check HF first and then Sears. I can see a professional wanting to have the very best, though.
     
  4. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,192
    Kingsport, TN
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    #4 Lawrence Coppari, Oct 17, 2004
    I use HF hex wrenches. I had purchased a set of socket mounted hex drives from Sears. A couple of them were slightly undersized. That nearly caused me to strip out an rather inaccessible bolt on one of my vehicles. All the HF ones are the correct size. I have the tee handled and 90 degree sets. I have used the tee handled ones without the handle and driven by the appropriate sized socket at times.

    Cheap tools serve their purpose, in my opinion. And you don't hesitate grinding or bending them with torch to get them into odd places.
     
  5. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
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    Tom
    #5 tbakowsky, Oct 17, 2004
    All I gotta say is..work for a week in a shop as a mechanic and you will soon see why some tools are cheap and others are worth the money. Trust me..
     
  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 ernie, Oct 17, 2004
    Oh no doubt about that Tom. If I had to make my living with my tools, then for sure it would be nothing but the best. However a friend of mine has a full set of Snap-On tools, and another full set of Craftsman. He has told me that the Snap-On's have busted on him, and has yet to have a Craftsman break. He said that if the job needs a strong tool he uses the Craftsman, because he was tired of dealing with the Snap-On dealers whining about replacing the tool.
     
  7. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    #7 f355spider, Oct 17, 2004
     
  8. Mark 328

    Mark 328 Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    510
    Orange, Ca
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    Mark Foley
    #8 Mark 328, Oct 17, 2004
    Like Dave Handa, I am an "extremist" 95% percent of my "collection" is either HF or Snap-on. Since Snap-on closed all of their district stores I have not bought much from them--it is a PIA to deal with the trucks. Much easier to shop the local HF.
    As an ex-tool and die maker I have a pretty good eye for tool quality and it is becoming apparent that American tools are going to be thing of the past--much of the HF is appraoching the mainstream quality. It is understandable because making wrenches is not rocket science. HF is really coming around in quality--look at their 1/2" drive deep impact sockets--they are very similar to Snap-on (Flank Drive, hardness, dimension) but you can get a set of 12 for about $10. I doubt you can get one snap-on socket for $10.

    Years ago, I used to service machine tools and I had to go to Wright Tool and Forge in Akron, Ohio to service a lathe. At that time (late 1970s) that company made the tools for Craftsman, Armstrong, Proto and several other brands. I used to have a socket that must have been used to set-up the letter stamping process because it had stamps from all the major brands on it!
    I would bet all this founry work is done overseas--I understand that even Snap-on vends this work overseas too.

    I have had a lot of bad luck with Craftsman sockets splitting under a high loads (head bolts) so except for their flex head ratchets, I avoid Craftsman.
     
  9. wolftalk

    wolftalk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2004
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    san franciso area
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    phil
    #9 wolftalk, Oct 17, 2004
    hi all,

    ok, I'll be back at the show again over the next couple days, and will look a little more closely.

    The trick is trying to figure out what can be easily gotten from suppliers like HF. I dunno about you, but for small differences in price, I'd tend to buy from companies with an established history. In other words, if I can google it easily and the price keeps the eyebrows level, then there's no need to try and source that product.

    If anyone wants to chime in with a shopping list, go to it. Since this is a manufacturers show, the purchase quantities need to be bigger than could be practically done by doing a 'group buy' approach, but a mostly retired friend of mine is interested in doing a small retail business (almost as a hobby), and sitting on a few thousand dollars worth of inventory that takes a long time to sell and generates little profit doesn't bother her.

    ta,
    phil
     
  10. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Nov 20, 2003
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    #10 Smiles, Oct 17, 2004
    Some Harbor Freight stuff is good, other Harbor Freight stuff is simply awful.

    I bought a deep throat drill press from them a while ago. When I tried to seat the collet, while faithfully following directions, the entire housing that held the table cracked. The whole thing was worthless, but good drill presses are hard to find anywhere.

    They have an excellent hand held electric shear. But not that many people need to cut from flat sheetmetal stock.

    Their deeper throat bead roller is a piece of absolute junk. The dies have no keys, the frame has no reinforcement, and you can't feed a sheet into the thing at the same time you're trying to turn the bead roller handle.

    Simple stuff, like sockets and wrenches, are fine.

    If you want something more complex, like the cheap aluminum car jack, you may need to rebuild it before you like it.

    At least that's my experience.

    --Matt
     
  11. austin308

    austin308 Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    14
    #11 austin308, Oct 18, 2004
    Well I love tools can't have to many. I am A Snap-on, Mac guy. and could talk tool all day. I think making a genral statment that one tool is good and another tool is bad is to broad a statement.
    Example.
    Snap-on 3/8 dr. ractchets seem to slip under extreme torque
    Mac 3/8 deep sockets seem to crack more than others
    proto not many special made auto tools.

    This is a main issue of H/F tools over tool truck tools (for me). Wall thickness. Both in sockets and wrenches. Sure you can make a socket stong if the wall thickness is twice what the other tool is. Now that gets to be a real issue on most F cars where we all know how much room they leave you to work on them. As for breaking sockets I have never broken a 6 point flank dr. snap socket or had it strip the head of the fastner.

    I do have H/F tools like there sandblaster. and they work fine but my hand tools are usally snap mac some matco and cornwell.

    as a side note think Snap-on cordless is weak like Porter cable and
    I prefer I/R air tools over the tool truck brands seem to have more torque.

    well ther's my 2 cents worth with all it's miss spells
     
  12. Ferrari_tech

    Ferrari_tech Formula 3

    Jul 28, 2003
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    Malcolm W
    #12 Ferrari_tech, Oct 18, 2004
    Agree with Tom, having spent 20 years "on the spanners" most of my tools are as good as new - mainly Snap-on and Proto.

    It's like they say "you only get what you pay for"
     
  13. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    #13 atheyg, Oct 18, 2004
    I buy alot of HF tools, IMO the sockets and open end wrenches are good quality and work fine, the ratchets in the regular line are cheap and will break sooner or later, HF has a Professional line and the quqlity and durability is much better, the same with the air tools for the Pro line and regular.

    Alot of the other stuff is just junk, vises, vice grips, pliers etc., anything electric has been good IMO such as grinders, drills and so forth as they copy directly many good tool makers designs Makita etc.

    I seem to lose as many tools as I buy especially if I have a breakdown in one of my trucks, stuff gets lost in the dirt so HF is fine for me but if I made my living with them then it would be different story.

    I think HF has had a huge impact on the tool industry and prices, Sears couldn't compete and now makes tools in China, if you watch Sears will have great sales that beat HF on some tools like screwdrivers which are much better quality, I think HF is great for under $200 you can have a very complete tool set vs the old days it would cost you $2500 from a Sears for the same amount of tools and your only alternative was really cheap junk from Pep Boys, and to have the same amount from Snap On or Mac you would be set back $10000, I know many mechanics that have a Snap On tool box or 2 it doesn't look like much but the whole value with everything in it is over $100000.
     
  14. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    #14 Scotty, Oct 18, 2004
    I've had some Craftsman tools that I bought in high school--which would be 30 years ago. I've had one ratchet and one screwdriver give up the ghost, but most have performed well. Finish, # of rachet teeth is not the best, but they work. Have a set of HF combo wrenches from the same vintage and they are going strong.

    But, I will try to buy better stuff now (esp things like torque wrenches) unless they won't get use much and/or are used on non-critical things (BBQ grills, the hardtop on my Jeep, etc.)

    I'm currently searching for a 1/2" impact driver and a 3/8" wratchet (both air). Torn between the Lowes/Home Depot choices versus top of the line Ingersoll Rand. Thinking it doesn't make much difference, as these won't be used much, and they have mid-level IR at the above stores. As long as the max torque is in the range I need, I'm thinking I'll be fine--right??
     
  15. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    #15 atheyg, Oct 18, 2004
    I'm currently searching for a 1/2" impact driver and a 3/8" wratchet (both air). Torn between the Lowes/Home Depot choices versus top of the line Ingersoll Rand. Thinking it doesn't make much difference, as these won't be used much, and they have mid-level IR at the above stores. As long as the max torque is in the range I need, I'm thinking I'll be fine--right??[/QUOTE]


    I have a 1/2" HF impact wrench called the "Earthquake" on sale it was $79, it had 450lbs of torque and I would say is equal to a $200 IR wrench which HF also sells, if you get the Pro Line air tools they seem good and are good values if you get them on sale.
     
  16. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    #16 Robin, Dec 15, 2004
  17. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    #17 FasterIsBetter, Dec 15, 2004
    Robin,

    Why so surprised? Ferrari has gone way over the top licensing their name and logo to just about anyone who will pay them. What I find more surprising is $459 at Costco discount for a set of tools that you could duplicate in Sears Craftsman for around $40 or $50, including a molded case, and put your own "Ferrari" sticker on the box. Ooooo... Facom tools... Well, I'll just rush out to plunk my money down.

    I've used Sears Craftsman tools for over 30 years and never had one break. Sure, the pros need the highest quality tools they can get. But as a hobbiest, the Craftsman tools work just fine for me. So do the things I've bought from HF, Ace, J.C. Whitney, etc.

    Regards,
    Steve
     
  18. stevew

    stevew Formula 3

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    #18 stevew, Dec 15, 2004
    Well said
     
  19. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    #19 larryg, Dec 15, 2004
    Wow, I must be the only person who has broken a craftsman tool...and I have never had a problem getting Snap-On to warranty a tool either...maybe I am just lucky.

    I make my living with my tools and I have no problem paying for better quality, it is usually worth it. Lately, I have been having good luck with Matco...better quality than craftsman and less expensive than Snap-On.

    Larry
     

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