Chinetti Sues Ferrari

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Aug 2, 2012.

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  1. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    It happened simply because Ferrari didn´t want a car without certification displayed next to their "official" stand. Period! Its that simple....and stupid!
     
  2. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2009
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    Seth
    Marnix, also with all due respect, I fear that your comment is naive. No difference at all. Ferrari's 'request' was a silk glove wrapped around a fist. The dealer sells Ferraris, generates enough revenues to pay for an extremely expensive dealership showroom and service facility, pay sales and service-persons and make a profit on his/her investment. In order to sell Ferraris, dealer must have Ferraris to sell. If flow of Ferrari deliveries from factory diminishes or if dealer cannot complete the sale and delivery of a particularly desirable new Ferrari model to a willing - and anxious - buyer because he doesn't have an allocation, buyer goes to another dealer. By and by the dealer who has made Ferrari unhappy by declining the 'request' to remove the 'offending' un-Classische-certified 330GTC is no longer in business or is forced to sell the dealership to another more acceptable dealer operator approved by Ferrari. The way the world works.
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    So I have to ask what is going to happen when I purchase a 308GT4 or 365GT/4 2+2 and decide to show it at my local Ferrari club show and Scuderia Veloce (Sydney Ferrari dealership) are the sponsors?

    Am I going to be denied the ability to show my car because Classiche has not rubber stamped it? Which based on the previous actions would be consistent.

    Sorry I purchased a second hand car, I did NOT purchase this car from Ferrari ... they can get ****ed with that attitude. They have effectively made every second hand Ferrari "the cost of certification and rectification" more expensive, and there are modifications that we all know improve these cars.

    Man I'm glad I first and foremost an alfisti.
    Pete
    ps: If this is Ferrari's attempt to stop replica type modifications then they are going about it the wrong way IMO.
     
  4. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Rookie
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    Mar 20, 2004
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    Michael
    Just some backgroud:
    BTW Scuderia Veloce hasn't been a Ferrari dealer for close to 10 years.
    Whoever runs the event can determine which cars can enter. In theory it it was a dealership event ( nothing to do with a ckub ) they could impose whatever restrictions they want.
    The Australian dealerships are all supportive of the FCA and their events. The Sydney dealer even offers discounted labour rates for older cars ( go figure).
    I've never seen or heard of pressure for classiche certification for any FCA Australian events.

    M
     
  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    Profound, Dude. Profound.

    Dale
     
  6. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    Andrew Turner
    Too true !!
     
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  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Thanks, learnt something :).
    Yet, maybe?

    Pete
     
  9. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Peter den Biggelaar
    I've heard about pressure in the UK though. Somebody from the UK might correct or confirm, but here's what I've heard:

    Most of you know that the FOC GB has been running the very popular race series for 308s, 328s etc for ages (I think they were raced even when still in production in the eighties!)

    Now, Ferrari wanted the Club to restict participation only to cars with Classiche certification. Everybody who knows the cars in this series knows this is an unrealistic and frankly stupid request. Unfortunately I don't know the intricate details but could check if desired. Anyone in the know feel free to comment.

    If true, this is just one example of how Ferrari is trying to 'promote' their Classiche program.

    On an aside: does anyone know what happens when the certificate expires? It's only valid for about 5 years, correct?
     
  10. MSPV12

    MSPV12 Karting

    Jun 18, 2008
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    Mark
    As a person who is minded to 'invest' in either a 512BB or perhaps a Daytona in the near future, this situation worries me a little.

    Keep this thread going chaps. Help me to better understand the landscape I am about to walk blindly into.
     
  11. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    Then you have to pay again to get it!
     
  12. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
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    I believe you bring up a good point . Do we truly know how far Ferrari wants to take this program . perhaps too soon to make a precedent or case but to this case may help one understand the control of the brand . we are talking about a certain era of cars now but it may honestly raise the benchmark for all cars 30 years from now . regardless of when the certificate is done it maybe like the major, a requirement for sale for the best price if not any price . New aficionados and limited experience buyers are more the norm lately . honestly that may be a factor .

    ------
    Android posting
     
  13. SAFE4NOW

    SAFE4NOW F1 Rookie
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    There are no expiration dates that I can find anywhere.

    Other than " hearing " it from someone, does anyone have something in writing that state's that it does?

    S
     
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  15. alebart3

    alebart3 Formula Junior

    Jun 5, 2008
    251
    Your words sounds like mine (I poost a thread to "investigate" The sense of buying a Ferrari today!.not the most winner cars, not the quikers, not hthe finest...)
    many people (not the rigth Guys obviously) answer the thread with strange things like:
    "..to show I'm healty and have a expensive car...etc

    Well the Ferrari, to day, has the buyers that are good for the soul you say..arrogance!
    Mr.Napolis, with his P4/5 at the Nurburgring, show to the world that a Ferrari may win nice races also to day and I feel that this is what many aspect from this company!

    Sorry for my bad english, all the best,
    Alessandro
     
  16. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie
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    As this thread is as much about the Classiche scheme in general thought this was worth mentioning. It seems the Eurocrats are looking at a common standard of road worthyness of cars in Europe, which is actually a worthy idea, but as usual there are details which are going to cause concern.

    Note in the general context paragraphs of the attached link to the proposal, one of the tests proposes will include if the car is compliant with how it was homologated in Europe?

    The modified car (Hot Rod) community seem very scared by this, as they believe it will instantly render a lot of modified cars illegal to drive on the road. It is obviously only for road cars and there is a 30 year historical car exemption but it will still affect the likes of the F40 etc, but it seems in some ways this requirement is very similar to Classiche's authentication process (although perhaps less stringent).

    Thoughts?

    http://ec.europa.eu/transport/doc/roadworthiness-package/com%282012%29380.pdf
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Modifications can be made to European standards but it requires testing of modifications which is expensive. Homologating P 4/5's unique wheels to worldwide standards for example cost about 50K euros at the time, the unique windscreen 30K euros, and the headlights as much as a new F430.
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Damn!

    Big boys game that's for sure.
    Pete
     
  19. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    It seems two different things are confused. Confirmed road worthiness of a new and an already registered vehicle are two different things and having alterations accepted for road use does not need to be a very heavy process. Bottom line is that a car must after modification comply to rules that were in effect when the car in question was built. And yes, that is a good thing.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  20. amadei

    amadei Rookie

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    #318 amadei, May 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2013
    Modena Motori, not Motomotori.
     
  21. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
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    I quote the famous and illustrious MM
    On 12 June 1966 chassis 0814 was raced in the Saint Baptiste race in St. Jovite, Canada, by Coco Chinetti and Charlie Kolb, race #3, DNF, Chinetti collided with Tom Ashwell’s Elva-BMW, the Ferrari caught fire and burnt to the ground at corner 8. In 1968 the remains of chassis 0814 were REBODIED in Italy into a strange Coupé with Gullwing doors for Chinetti’s NART, following a design by Giovanni Michelotti, prepared for road use for Robert M. Peak, Greenwich/CT/USA (Chinetti’s financial backer). It is pictured page 44 of “Cavallino” magazine, issue #52. In 1968 it (the strange Coupé) was displayed at the New York Auto Show."
    I understand it was re-bodied in Italy--is that one of the cars Ferrari refused to authenticate? To me a Ferrari that had its body removed and had another body attached and then had a new body put on is still authentic. It's like Marilyn Monroe--still Marilyn no matter what dress she wore...

    Also I think Coco could start a men's clothing line with the NART insignia and argue that it was a company symbol for over a decade and he has as much right to the prancing horse as Ferrari. If he succeeds, Ferrari would have to buy that business from him to kill off the brand..
     
  22. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    The argument with the two Chinetti 250/275P was how much apart from the bodies had to be replaced during the restoration with Ferrari claiming most of the chassis was new and since it was new they were producing a counterfeit Ferrari, thus were in breach of copyright and blah blah blah. IT is a commentary ala #0846, 0858 and many more and begs the question what is original and what is fake. Chinetti ala Piper had the tendency to mess about with the fabric of his vehicles both accidentaly via use and at times purposely via rebodies and chassis modifications.

    Whatever they are the two cars that exist are the only earthly remains of #0812 & 0814, thus having their identities. Unlike the situation with #0818 which is much murkier, with two claimants to the vehicles identity.
     
  23. 330GTMK2

    330GTMK2 Rookie

    Jan 16, 2013
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    Edward Brown
    Matthew - for me page 10, point 9 is the most relevant to our hobby. As with most things the Eurocrats continue to fail to connect and engage with the collectors car communities across the Eurozone, not withstanding the lobbying undertaken by the FHVC and others. As both an enthusiast, and specialist broker.... the current arrangements for assessing a collectors vehicle's roadworthiness in the Eurozone, concern me..

    Not unlike Bertrand Delanoë (the socialist Mayor of Paris), who last year campaigned for all cars pre 1995 to be banned from French roads....I suspect that the politicians within the Eurozone will seek to make economic capital out of marginalising the use of collectors car, without first considering the implications around restoration, purchase, tourism etc.

    Ed
     
  24. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    Steve Hill
    Different car. 0812 was the car that had its original body, as of 1965 anyway, removed and replaced with the Bob Peak & Coco designed body. The car and body was not destroyed in an accident. Coco likes to designs cars, and still does today, and decided to have a new body put on a then useless race car (unlike the 250/275LMs, which were eventually homologated and continued racing successfully).

    Steve

     
  25. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    Steve Hill
    Long story short. A Ferrari employee (shall remain nameless, but you can look it up in the suit) was sent out to look at various Chinetti cars being restored in Europe. Came back to Ferrari, made a statement of sorts that Chinetti was building or was going to build fakes/replicas (not sure which verb tense), Chinetti got pissed, sued Ferrari, won in Italian court and his cars, rightfully, were declared "real" and ok. 0812 has its original chassis, engine, gearbox, blah, blah, blah. 0814 appears to have its original engine block (cylinder heads, carbs, etc. were parted out long ago) and a transaxle case with no guts. The chassis is new. No part of it is original. Coco has never said otherwise. It is, as pointed out, all that remains of the overall winner of 1963 24 Hours of LeMans. No other car, or pieces of a car, can (should) claim that. I have many hundreds of pictures of both cars from the accidents through the restoration process, have personally seen both and have driven and raced 0812. A wicked fun car to drive on a race track.

    Steve

     
  26. Wolfgang5150

    Wolfgang5150 F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Maybe it was mentioned earlier; but I was shocked at the 3 seat configuration. I thought that was Gordon Murray's original idea.
    Kevin
     
  27. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Thanks for a brilliant response
     

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