Chinetti Sues Ferrari

There is a collector in Calif. Bruce Meyer who has a Cobra and it's the first one sold to the public. When he bought it he had it rebuilt and chose its look at one moment in time during its long 30 year plus existance as a race car. So he could have brought it back to the way it looked when it left the A.c. factory or the way it left Shelby's dealer (Ed Hugus) or the way it was first raced (with a silly notchback hardtop) but he picked another point in its life and chose that look. It's still historically significant, being the first customer car , no matter what body it has or trim level. It was in fact updated with a more modern steering system like the later Cobras but that was done with Shelby's approval. So what I am saying relevant to the Coco cars is that as long as they can be judged to be essentially true to the way the car looked at a moment in time, than they should be approved for a certificate. And Ferrari has a lot of nerve impeding NART anyway, if it wasn't for the NART car, Ferrari would not have won LeMans in '65.

 

Here's a question: is she registered in NY on the Scuderia VIN, the GT3 VIN or as SCG 0001 ?

 

Jim, did you take off the ferrari nose badge?
Ed

 

I would like to buy, from you, what you did not use. The Ferrari bits.
From this I will make a very nice GTO or TR replicant.

It will be very authentic because that matters to me.

Then if I do everything right and pay a lots and lots of monies,
I can have my car Classichefied !!!

This will make me very happy.
Please tell me we have a deal.

 

Another brilliant example of Ferrari's foolish business decisions. After your near top-10 finish at the 24Hrs I bet they wish they could rethink that. Sadly even without supporting your effort in any way they still reap some of the benefit as most will know the origins of P4/5C and associate it with Ferrari despite the name not being on the car.

My only complaint - why did you have to pick a blue one? Plenty of red ones could have been cut up.

>8^)
ER

 

As they say in Hip Hop its all about the money ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. And Ferrari would screw every dollar it can out of their clients. They obviously didnt want Jim G to go out and "damage" their brand by actually doing something that wasnt entirely Ferrari driven. If Jim G went to Aperta (Or whatever they call the in house customisation service) They would potentially have done something similar but with full control by Ferrari SPA and with full pricing, double (Triple, quadruple ?) what you could do it for yourself. And since they retain full control, you would still end up with whatever Ferrari wants to give you rather than what you wanted.

 

I disagree. "Moment in time" is one way to restore a car, but demanding it would be pure totalitarism. Some cars have many features from various moments in time that reflect the history as an entity and can exist side by side in perfect harmony.

Best wishes, Kare

 

That's an interesting viewpoint, and I'm not sure I agree.

Take the Can Ams for example. When they were built up as such, several P4's seized to exist.
Hearsay, but elsewhere in a relevant discussion, it was stated that such a car could not be Classiche certified as a P4.

That seems perfectly logical to me, but if I get you right, you'd say that putting a P4 body on a modified CanAm chassis would be OK?

 

Unfortunately I am not very familiar with the Can Am case as anything built after 250GT production ended fails to really interest me, but my point is that when historically significant features have to be removed in process of restoration, history is being erased and replaced with something new. Restoration is a delicate process where every step takes the car further away from original, even if we like to think that things are reversed back into original. So... I do think that one should be very careful when forming strict "rules" for the process.

Many early SWB Berlinettas were retro-fitted with fender vents and vent windows. If I wanted to restore such a car into original livery, I would not want to be FORCED to pick between removing these 50-year-old items or choosing a "later moment in time". My point being that I'd like to have the option to combine original colors with those anacronistic features as they too have historical significance.

Best wishes, Kare

 

According to this post Kare, we are in complete agreement.... but that IS choosing a "moment in time", simply a later one.

Case in point, my Lotus 19 Harrison Special. This car was delivered to J Frank Harrison as a stock Lotus 19 running a Climax engine. In that stock trim it raced and won the Kent GP with Lloyd Ruby driving it. Shortly afterwards with Jerry Eisert as the designer and Crew Chief, they got wind of Gurneys efforts to shoehorn a Ford V8 into their Lotus 19, so Jerry set the car on the frame rack at Troutman and Barnes and proceeded to cut off everything behind the rear firewall. Needing a Ford V8 and a transaxle, and with Shelby owing them money from anothr transaction that he never paid for, they waited and watched from the front window of T&B for Shelby to go to lunch. When he did, they took a 2 wheeler a few doors down to Shelby's shop and grabbed the first Ford V8 with a transaxle they could find ( a VERY interesting story in itself as there is a very 'special' Ford race car that Really doesnt have its original engine and trans like folks think it does!), and brought it back to the shop. Setting the lump on the frame rack, they proceed to build the whole rear half of the car and rear suspension, connecting everything back together as one. Chuck Pelly designed the aluminum bodywork, his 3 effort after graduating from design school (his first being the Scarab and his second the Chaparrel 1, both sister cars and both built alongside the Harrison Special).

George Folmer went on to race it in the Bahamas and then in 1964, Jimmy Clark of F1 fame took it to the pole for the 1964 Players 200 GP at Mosport (http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Mosport-1964-06-06.html ) ..... while playing alongside some very interesting cars that are special to us all!

Jimmy choose to drop out before the race started because the car was such a wreck and couldnt be trusted to actually finish. George and Lloyd had done a bit of Bumper cars with it prior to when Jimmy drove it in anger, better not to run, than to run and make a poor showing. Clark was contracted with both Ford and Lotus, and that was how this ride was chosen for him..... Alas, not to be raced, only qualified on pole, not every story leads to the Champion playing grab ass with the track queen on the podium.... getting the stories, and the cars correct... that should be what this is all about... but now its turned into a Profit motivated business where one finds it necessary to point out that they alone own the sandbox.

I am faced with the choice of what to restore, a "Lotus 19" or the "Harrison Special", both valuable from a historic perspective. To cut up the Harrison Special.... to restore it back to a homely Lotus 19..... no, I think not. Even HOW its restored is a problem I am faced with as Eisert ran out of time and welded the EMT conduit together that was only being used as a template. Personally, if I am going to turn a wheel in anger, I choose to use 4130 and NOT restore it absolutely correctly with thin wall conduit! I am faced with the same set of Challenges on my BBC CanAm race car which was 2 different cars throughout its lifetime... to date!

I am choosing "Moments in time" which interest me the most when deciding how to restore these cars. In the case of Ferrari's Classiche program.... I feel it started with good intentions, one that could provide a valuable service having access to all the build records that still exist. The simple fact is I find it highly doubtful that there is anyone in the program or at SpA who was hands dirty on the cars in question, in the day... hell, there wasnt anyone there who knew the F50 when I had one with a bad engine I had to tear into back in the 90's! John Amette, who spearheads the N. American portion of the program, apprenticed under John Cooper in the UK back in the day. One heck of an incredible background to start with and a finer man cant be found BUT unless you were hands dirty in a given race series, heck with that, a given Car.... no one could know what is "Correct" on one of those cars... they were changing as they rolled out the back door!

"It's correct now because we say it is", even if it happens to have a newly cast block in it.... I find that quite arrogant BUT, they hold all the cards and if that lump was recast under their 'watchful' eye... its as good as it can be... but "Correct" it isnt. Yes, I think they can quite accurately Certify a Steet Car. A Race Car....... without seeking the help and guideance of the NART Pro's themselves, mearly a pipe dream, absurd at best. Not admitting to that fact has put the program highly in question in my mind, the first liar never stood a chance and arrogance has no place in choosing what is Correct or Wrong on very expensive cars.

 

As this thread demonstrates among those who know Ferrari Classiche certification carries a large asterisk. Among those less familiar, looking for provenance on the purchase of a large value asset, it carries a lot more weight.
In an upmarket Classiche certification commands a premium. When the market turns soft those brokers who tout it now will be discounting it

 

I wouldn't even take my 308 to Classiche. You as owner have to provide them with all the information that you have, all the chassis, engine, assembly numbers etc. including pictures. Only to let them tell you the obvious: yep, that's a Ferrari allright!

 

Like the missionaries turned colonists they came to do good and did very well indeed.

 

I also understand from someone who recently had a 1950's comp Ferrari go through Classiche, that Ferrari does not even give copies of the Assembly Data Sheets, which was the one scintilla of justification I could come up with for paying all that money for the binder.

 

Fully agree but... I still think it provides a value on special vintage cars. That stated, the certification is only as good as the inspector doing the job and the records on hand.

I would suggest one would require certification of the persons doing the inspection prior to any inspecting being done. I state that knowing little to nothing about the program and never having been involved in the operation, my concerns may already have been addressed.

Before a certificate can be provided I would think Historians worldwide would have to agree, not just the sandbox owner.... unless of course the true history is a secondary concern

 

360,430,612's, etc are not Classiche-able. F40, 16M, 599 GTO, and vintage cars are, does that change anything though?

As the owner, you are simply providing the car, the rest is done in house. The Classiche department documents each of the items you listed, including taking the pictures.

S

 

+1! Amen!

 

LOL. quote of the week sir. Funny.

 

I really don't see what the problem is.
On another note, I'm available to certify P4/5's and P4/5C's.
Should you happen to know an owner of one of these feel free to have them DM me.

I will say, however, that expertise comes at a price and therefore these services are QUITE expensive.
However, any man of taste, any true cognoscenti should never be dissuaded by something as pedestrian as monetary concerns.

Best Regards and we do accept Cash!