CIS issue...Final chapter | FerrariChat

CIS issue...Final chapter

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Jagbuff, Nov 24, 2008.

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  1. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,267
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    Franck
    First my thanks to Steve M and Larry F for their help in clarifying and insight in resolving this CIS related problem. I had a breakthrough this weekend and my 88.5 TR is finally running closer to what it should - minor idle tweaking required!

    I am posting a more detailed explanation for the benefit of future searches. The solution might appear obvious to some... always is when you have the answer ;)

    Issue: "New to me" 88.5 TR, stumbles under partial throttle as it reaches 3K rpm range - appears to be running lean, pops through intake - Slow down light have come on a couple of times but could be a short (per PO). Car has EXTENSIVE maintenance history, with many parts replaced (injectors, Lambda sensors - by the bucket, catalytic converters - 2 sets, all in the span of 2000 miles) Starts fine, briefly runs well when cold but goes south after warming up, still drivable but not quite right.

    Basic Diagnostics:
    Checked Lambda and both are sending voltage left bank is varying - right hand bank is pegging around 1.0V suggesting rich situation - appears to conflict with assumption of lean condition
    Checked right bank upper and lower chamber CIS pressure (thanks Larry for the fixture). Pressure differential is ok at 0.3 bar BUT does not change when EHA is removed (no wonder it is running lean I think). It should change increase 0.1bar - is EHA dead?
    Checked EHA resistance - OK at 20 ohm - bench test works fine
    Measure voltage or current to EHA - should be 10 milliamp or 200 millivolt - WITH EHA connected. Result of test "zero" volt. Changed the mixture screw and nothing happens - Does this point to ECU not functioning?

    Here is where it gets tricky when you have a preconceived notion - I think that the car is running lean, yet the Lambda is showing rich, voltage is at EHA is zero which means the CIS is lean, changing the mixture doesn't do anything...I am thinking that the ECU is not working correctly.

    Verdict:
    Well after switching parts around I determined that the ECU is working fine, EHA is working fine, Lambda is fine, wiring is fine, so what is the problem? Simple answer - the mixture screw on the R bank CIS is way rich....5 or 6 turns which is way way off since typically you are adjusting by 1/10 of turns. So when I tweaked the screw in my testing process nothing would happen, pressure wouldn't go up (b/c the Lambda reads rich the voltage to EHA would not change off zero).

    Lesson:
    Understand how a system works before replacing parts!! The CIS on the TR is quite simple, in fact it is so simple that anyone feels they can fiddle with it... and send it out of whack. Looking at the MANY maintenance bills on my car, I have little doubt this has been an ongoing problems that has been address by replacing parts but never quite understand how the system actually works.

    BTW, manual suggests measuring pins 7 and 8 to measure resistance across Lambda sensor with ECU disconnected - this is confusing - ECU is connected but power off - I removed the connector from ECU and could not get the right values for the Lambda resistance. If you don't have a break out box you can remove the back of the connector and probe the pins that way.
     
  2. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2006
    15,828
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Frenchi, is there a bigg diff between CIS and CISE?
     
  3. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,426
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    I'm not sure if this simple test would have helped or not....please read and give your opinion....

    Air Filter box removed so you have access to the air flow metering plates, engine off, fuel system pressurized. At rest the metering plates should be centered approximately in the narrow vertical portion of the air funnel. You should be able to push downwards (slow and gentle) on the air flow metering plate a distance of about 1/8 to maybe 3/16 of an inch before you feel resistance as the flow plate pivot arm contacts the plunger of the fuel distributor. If there isn't any feeling of "gap" then the mixture screw is turned too rich.

    Does this sound about right?
     
  4. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,267
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    Franck
    At first glance CIS looks similar, but the "E" piece meters the differential pressure btw upper and lower chamber - that apparently - is the tricky part as 0.1 bar off can throw the system off. CIS is not as sensitive. Larry F is the expert and go to guy, super helpful.
     
  5. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,267
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    Franck
    Not sure about the free play, I did test according to the WSM and both "felt" the same, smooth travel and one bounce on release. Also tested the voltage change back to the ECU through the motion and it was correct. I will check once I take the covers off again, while I have solved the warm running condition, the cold start is not great.. looks like I have reversed the problem :)
     
  6. fletch62

    fletch62 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    333
    Fairhope, AL
    Full Name:
    Larry Fletcher
    Yes there is a big difference, the main thing is a K-jet system just needs to be in the ballpark to work ok, the KE-jet has to be dead nut by the specs to work right. Most CIS problems are caused by experenced mechanics shortcuting the test and diagnostic procedure because "I've seen this problem before". It is less trouble to talk a novice through the setup than a pro. This is because the novice will do all the tests and fix each problem. These systems are fairly simple, but they are highly engineered and very complex in design. When I was at the "308's in 08" event in Tunica MS the most common thing I saw was airflow sensor plate rest position was wrong. I fixed this on half a dozen cars, that was probably half the CIS cars there. Anyway don't let CIS scare you you can allways contact me for personal tech support.

    Larry Fletcher
    CIS Flow Tech Llc.
    251-929-3771
     
  7. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    BANNED Professional Ferrari Technician

    Apr 26, 2006
    3,664
    New England
    Full Name:
    David Feinberg
    Very interesting, Larry. When I went to "Bosch School" back in the early 80s', that was the first thing we were taught to verify, before beginning any diagnostic process. Old habbits die hard and even today, I still check the plate height and base idle speed setting first, before the fuel pressures...

    Regards,
    David
     

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