News

Citroen hydraulics - Khamsin, Bora, early Merak, late Indy

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by thecarnut, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. MK1044

    MK1044 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2011
    14,465
    Grogeous Mother Earth
    Full Name:
    Carmine
    Moderator,

    Unless there is some objection from the community, please add Elliot's newer LHM thread onto this one.

    Carmine
     
  2. DonNewcomb

    DonNewcomb Rookie

    Apr 3, 2013
    11
    I'm working on a '73 Indy 4900 with a Citroen hydraulic system. The system leaks because the scavenging system does not maintain a vacuum. The reason for this is that the the rubber cap on the hydraulic return reservoir is completely deteriorated. The cap is not available from any source I've found, including Maserati-US or MIE. The cap strongly resembles a CV joint boot. The part number is supposed to be 5.424.666 ("Cuffia per tubo pescante con filtro")

    I'm wondering if anyone has found any source for this boot or a expedient substitution? Thanks!
     
  3. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    67,952
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    If you don't have any luck finding the original you might want to look for the various Citroen specialists and websites as they would probably be in a better position to suggest ideas on how you could improvise a good solution. A couple of places to try:

    Sm World - Jerry Hathaway LA area?
    Citroen Concours - San Diego?

    Maserati-Sport Yahoo Groups discussion website

    Good luck.
     
  4. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,368
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    The Car Nut
    Please post a photo. There was a person that was reproducing the caps for the Citroen cars but I am not sure if it is the same as on your car.

    Ivan
     
  5. DonNewcomb

    DonNewcomb Rookie

    Apr 3, 2013
    11
    #55 DonNewcomb, Apr 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As it turns out, we just took these photos this morning. The inner diameter of the large end is about 7 cm and the i/d of the smaller end is roughly 1.8 cm. The hydraulic fluid returns via a rubber hose running through the top of this cap.

    We have e-mailed copies to the Citreon contacts in the earlier reply.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. MK1044

    MK1044 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2011
    14,465
    Grogeous Mother Earth
    Full Name:
    Carmine
    To dig this up again:

    I accept Ivan's, (and other people's), actual experience.

    However, note an apparent mistake in the Khamsin owner's manual, (MIE reprint), page 186: "... set at about 175 bars ...".
     
  7. DonNewcomb

    DonNewcomb Rookie

    Apr 3, 2013
    11
    #57 DonNewcomb, Apr 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    After some study and discussion we went to a local motorcycle/ATV dealership where we obtained a CV boot for a Polaris ATV. Attached is a photo showing the fit on the top of the hydraulic fluid reservoir. We understand that this is not correct but it fits and may prevent the system from dripping hydraulic fluid all over everything.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  8. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,368
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    The Car Nut
    Looks like an acceptable solution to me.

    Ivan
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    67,952
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    WHAT! Totally unacceptable. See, you must learn about the struggle and pain involved in owning a Maserati, especially one with ... LHM. You need to spend weeks and lots of $$$ finding the original, quirky and correct part.

    Only then will you be eligible as an official Maserchist!

    Good work. ;)
     
  10. Doug R

    Doug R Karting

    Oct 11, 2005
    199
    I'm still pondering the vacuum theory. What creates it? Does not the fluid return under it's own reduced pressure? In which case, would the reservoir actually need to have a breather? Never really studied this quite.
     
  11. MK1044

    MK1044 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2011
    14,465
    Grogeous Mother Earth
    Full Name:
    Carmine
    Looks like a good fix.

    Bob makes a good point also. ;)
     
  12. ferrarigöran

    Jun 1, 2009
    15
    There is no vacuum, shouldnt be. The lhm creeps back to the canister by pressure. The return lines can get clogged, the best way to unclogg the lines is to apply light pressure with a bicycle pump.

    Cheers, göran
     
  13. jasu

    jasu Rookie

    Oct 17, 2011
    25
    Finland
    Now You must make a breather when You use ATV CV boot. The original part has a small bended metal tube, what is working as breather...

    Same part is used in Khamsin, Merak, and Citroen M35 (maybe some other, I'm not sure), not very easy to find a new one...
     
  14. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,368
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    The Car Nut
    Also the original part is made from the rubber of trees only grown in southern Brazil. Any other rubber will disintegrate in 3 days (just kidding) :)

    Ivan
     
  15. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    117
    SoCal
    Wondering where, if on Ivan's site or other, is centralized body of hard fact info re ALL parts (and servicing tips) for LHM systems in BORA/other? Not too tough to find local help in Accum's rebuild in SoCal, and new main sphere (although ALL sources and references welcome--along with critiques), both done in recent years. Also sources/facts needed re replacement /rebuild of all rams and especially Bosch switches under dash. Bound to come up needed at some future point. Most info I'd had before now proves too old and outdated. There seems to be a lot of actual experience/s out there from past expoits by intrepid owners, but precious little hard fact and recent real resources for current mending /replacing--especially centralized experience and tips pool. Or, perhaps I'm just insufficiently skilled/practiced at searching this site/ the web/ F'McGee's closet, etc. Bob S. and Ivan between them must have seen every possible thread, reference, and resource by now... any pointers or clues or direct pointers you might share?
    Ned (Bora 73 4.9 US)
     
  16. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    67,952
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    I'll point you to a few places but keep in mind that some of us learned about this stuff before there was an internet so if you think it's tough now ...

    To that point, MIE especially back issues of the club magazine are a terrific resource. If you're not a member and haven't looked there already you really are shooting yourself in the foot at the beginning of your long journey.

    I used to take their now nonexistent roster which had car owner's cars and phone numbers listed. It was a very different era and much nicer too! That's how I met Gene O'Gorman.

    So ... a lot of this information was assimilated by all of the club members we "just know" about it and if we can remember sometimes even where to go for some things.

    Now early on during the internet days some of this was collected and put on lists. Some of it is gone, some of it is still around and some of it got modified because people got mad.

    This website is a social discussion place. Storing and categorizing information isn't
    really done or encouraged here. That's purveyor's choice. It was attempted some years ago and you see the result. IMHO this software isn't terribly suitable for that either but I'm on a few other ones who manage to something by using the "Sticky" function. So, I won't give you specific website addresses but if you Google for them you'll figure it out.

    In Yahoo Groups which has recently been revamped and is bug ridden plus poorly designed you will find a couple of sites to check out.

    Maserati - no activity these days but there are numerous discussions about this and all topics Maserati. The database, links and files sections which used to have a lot more in them but somebody deleted some of the stuff. The owner of this group is an uncooperative non moderating person who does very little except to leave it alone. That eventually led to it's demise. The discussions are still good though. Worth using.

    Sport-Maserati-L - Is a heavy Citroen system place. SM & Merak. Very active and lot's of good info going way back. I think you'll find quite a bit of info and help on there.

    MASERATIGTCARS - I'm not a member, this was formed when a couple of folks got pissed (see above) about the Maserati group and started a new one.

    The Bora Registry used to be on geocities and is gone but I think some of the info is on Ivan's website? Thecarnut You should definitely go to Ivan's website as he managed to download all the Maserati manuals while they were all available online from the factory.

    Maserati Resource Center. George Perfect used to have website which had a lot of the same exact info found on some of these other websites. It's open/closed/open/closed for remodeling. Best of luck with that one ...

    David Hume - excelsiormotors

    Courtesy of VELOCETWO:
    KIMMERLE BROTHERS HYDRAULIC
    Barry Barisic is a hydraulic engineer and Bora owner that rebuilds the piston and switch seals.
    337 M St
    Fresno, CA
    (559) 233-1279
    Email: barry@kimmerlebrothers.com

    Now ... that's certainly not all of them and if you find some good ones please share.

    It's basic hydraulics using the LHM fluid but some of the parts are adaptations like those Bosch cylinders which were a poor choice on Maserati's part but maybe that's all they had at the time. It's a shame that the seals can't be changed easily by car owners.

     
  17. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    117
    SoCal
    Thanks Bob. I did read on further, and found some of the prior references, too, from about 2009 or so hereunder. Did not mean to bother you needlessly, but your in-depth response is most welcome and comprehensive.

    Some of these items were new to me, some nearly forgotten, and some known. Always a pleasant surprise to find a nugget or two, however. Ivan's website manuals etc. are a TREASURE, as is his helpful advice. I am re-contacting Barry Barisic now that you provided contact info I'd lost. Will advise, re any update or news there.

    I have occasionally belonged to MIE, and was a member of MOCNA years ago, for awhile. I wish I'd stayed more in touch with all of those guys, as it was fun and a great collection of knowledgeable Maseratisti. I still have occasional contact with some, but the club has largely faded, as such. I do still know Doug Magnon and occasionally drive the Bora to his Museum, and now his new restaurant. Great stuff. We'll go by there again on weekend of Feb.22-23 on the way out to Palm Springs for Paul and Holly Merrigan's ever-delightful "Desert Classic" concours. Always a classy crew of very experienced and helpful people--just the right sort. [Emphatically not like certain others]

    New to me was this reference you made--Thanks... I'll follow up:
    "Sport-Maserati-L - Is a heavy Citroen system place. SM & Merak. Very active and lot's of good info going way back." A friend (Maxx) has a non-LHM 78 MerakSS (we meet up at Cars & Coffee in Irvine CA each Saturday early), and I'll refer this on to him also.

    Hopefully, I will learn a few recent developments on these lingering themes that may be helpful and will update our knowledge. And, I'll continue reading back into the historical references on this forum, etc. Let us know when you are on our coast for any events. Maxx is a New Jersey lad and comes back yearly.

    Best and warmest regards,
    Ned Evans
     
  18. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    737
    New York and Norway
    Full Name:
    Art
    I offer two further resources for working on or rebuilding LHM / Bosch / Citroen hydraulic components:

    Will's Imports
    945 South 300 West
    Salt Lake City, UT 84101
    (801) 531-0238.
    - Will rebuilt my Bora's hydraulic switches, distribution blocks and headlight pistons.

    Dave Burnham Citroen
    599 Youngs Road
    Delanson, NY 12053
    (518) 875-6956
    - Dave is the "go to" guy for local Citroen-era Maserati's: a Merak or two, a Khamsin and two Boras, not to mention a multitude of Citroen SM's. His shop did all the roadworthiness work-up my Bora needed after sitting 22 years, including rebuilding the accumulators and high pressure pump.

    Best,
    - Art
     
  19. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    117
    SoCal
    Thanks Art -- I'll contact these sources to see what their current level of interest and capabilities might be in respect to doing this work. Somehow it had not occurred to me to consider that 'distribution blocks' might need service. Please state if you think of any critical kinds of questions to include in interviewing these shops. I'm hoping you are quite satisfied with the work done, and that the car is now driven regularly. What year? 4.9?

    Ivan had mentioned previously to not rely on way old tires either--so consider replacing or upgrading. Hard to find 15" tires in any selection, but possible. XWX not necessarily best choice for driving, considering technology has moved along so much, but some are still sentimental. Wonder if modern AVONs can be had in good sizes. Note that the inner fender well can interfere with going beyond 225x15. Top end of third is clipping right along and not the best notion on old rubber.

    Best regards and happy miles,
    NE
     
  20. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi all,

    Please find thereafter few adress of european suppliers of Citroen Hydraulics.
    Most of the most complicated / expensive parts are directly coming from the Citroen parts bin, and are quite inexpensive (when the Maserati brand "mark up" is not used)
    You'll find near everything (3.5 / 4.5 / 6.35mm copper nickel tube, connectors and flaring tools, piping, flexibles, hoses, spheres, hydraulic pump and parts etc)
    I'm still searching for affordable Bosch actuators parts...

    Sphère accumulateur de frein 3 voies LHM rénovée 40 Bars - Pièces Citroën DS & ID

    Citroen-DS-11CV-HY / DS / maître-cylindres

    Sphere Technic : +33(0)4 72 08 96 56
    Adresse : Bernard Tetard 252, rue Montmorency, 69730 Genay France
    Not sure this guy from Sphere Technic is speaking english, otherwise he's very competent

    I would be very happy to find Bosch stuff and the method to bleed the clutch hydraulics of the Bora.
     
  21. eogorman

    eogorman Formula Junior

    May 10, 2005
    293
    Buhl, ID
    Full Name:
    Eugene O'Gorman
    The Bora Clutch is a tough one because the pipes go up and down. I have had the best success with applying pressure bleed at the slave cylinder. Be careful because the fill tank is small and will overfill. You can also try vacuum bleed but it will take several attempts to get most of the air out.
     
  22. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    67,952
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Please note that the clutch circuit is brake fluid and not LHM.

    Filling the damn reservoir is a beotch.

    I dented my car once doing it!

     
  23. Freitag

    Freitag Karting

    Apr 7, 2009
    53
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Helge Mamen
    Hi, all. As far as I know, LHM oil is not hygroscopic, and will not attract moisture or collect water. Which is a good thing:)

    H
     
  24. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    67,952
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Correct but it is highly criticoscopic which is why we're even discussing the topic at all ... ;)
     

Share This Page