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Citroen hydraulics - Khamsin, Bora, early Merak, late Indy

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by thecarnut, Jan 11, 2009.

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  1. AM1220552

    AM1220552 Karting

    May 25, 2012
    132
    Please be aware that the brake spheres used for Maserati's are supposed to hold 65 BAR of nitrogen pressure and the regulatorsphere should be a standard of 62 BAR if my memory serves me right.

    Kind regards

    Kim
     
  2. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Boo
    This topic has frequently been raised in past discussions about the Bora's requirements over the years. I'm not sure if the Bora was supposed to be any different than any of the other Maserati applications but it would be nice to find an authenticated factory engineering/service documentation source for what is actually correct instead of the usual word of mouth methodology. Maybe Mark Sonnery can help with such a source?
     
  3. Freitag

    Freitag Karting

    Apr 7, 2009
    53
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Helge Mamen
    Hehe, so true.
     
  4. jasu

    jasu Rookie

    Oct 17, 2011
    25
    Finland
    It doesn't really matter, if the charged pressure is 62 bar instead of 65 bar. That 3 bar difference does nothing at all...

    We tested does over 20 bar difference make something, when we charged Sm:s brake accu to 62 bar instead the original 40 bar, then compared these two Sm:s and there were nothing difference with "feeling" with brake pedal, only thing what could be found is number of full braking with stopped engine.

    Tried to count, but both cars had over 50 full braking, and still after that when opened bleed screw from brake caliber, both managed to bleed abaut same amount of LHM...

    Must to remember, there is much more pressure in system than what is charged to sphere, it depends from the cut-out pressure at pressure regulator...
     
  5. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi all,

    I remember that Carnut mentionned that he had a Bora with 40someting and 62 bar sphere...so i guess spheres used on Maserati are coming straight from the citroen part bin...
    still to be confirmed...
    the sure fire : spheres were qualified much above those 65 bar
    anybody has experience to remove the 2 spheres of the brake accumulator in a Bora ?
    Looks like a pain in the a.. !

    Thanks all for comments and tips about the clutch bleeding.
    Cool to remember that the Bora use DOT fluid for the Clutch.
    (Some cylinders have died because other fluids were used, making chewing gum with the rubber seals)

    Cheers,
     
  6. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Boo
    Too bad about the contamination of the wrong fluid. That means top to bottom everything must be checked and probably rebuilt. :(

    There is no shortage of idiots in this world.

    Yes the brake accumulators are a complete PITA to change. There are adapter fittings on them as well and you should locate new ones of those in case you need them. I think MIE has them, they are not a Citroen item AFAIK? Check with Eurospares and Candini in Modena as well.

    What I wish is that they had used a screw in type sphere, like the main one so that that changing was a lot simpler. I wonder if anyone had done such a modification?

    THAT would be worthwhile in my view.

     
  7. jasu

    jasu Rookie

    Oct 17, 2011
    25
    Finland
    #82 jasu, Feb 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just use part from Citroen Cx brake accu...

    Quite easy to find here, piping is same as original sphere...
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  8. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,267
    Cape Town, South Afr
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    Jack Verschuur
    jasu,

    That's a good find, wish I had known that before I renewed the membranes last year.

    One question though: Does the CS use the same fluid, and if not, will the CS membranes work with the original type fluid? I'm getting confused with all these different types fluid, their applications and their mixability.

    Best,

    Jack.
     
  9. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 22, 2006
    2,137
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    The Car Nut
    I will be doing the spheres on my Bora next month as I have no idea when they were last done.

    They are not that difficult to remove. A few pointers:

    1. Remove the left carpeted engine cover as this will give you much better access to the brake spheres.
    2. Open the bleed screw on the regulator to make sure any remaining pressure is release. If not, you can make a real mess (ask me how I know).
    3. Make sure to use two wrenches when disconnecting the metal pipes. The small nipples on the brake spheres can be very brittle and will break with not much twisting (ask me how I know).
    4. Leave the two nipples in place as they seldom leak and can easily break. I do not believe these nipples were not used by Citroen and can be difficult to source.
    5. The main sphere is threaded. Hit it with a punch and large hammer and that normally breaks it loose.

    Ivan
     
  10. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi all,

    thanks a lot for your advices / tips.

    CX / DS / SM / ugly boxy BX are all using LHM for their hydraulics : French-Alien green blood.

    CX and DS have a lot in common with our italian Ladies : from the sphere to the regulators or distributors : a lot in common if not identical parts.
    Looks my other messages for contact.
    CX are plentiful in the european scrapyard and are available for a song.

    Good to have to learn your ropes about Hydraulics before destroying the real thing (look at the Carnut tales about DIY mess with those stuff) .
    For Girling brake system, LHM or not LHM this is another good source :
    Classic Car Parts - PowerTrack Ltd - Mail Order Supplier of Lockheed and Girling Brake and Clutch Components For British Car and Commercial 1935 - 1980

    Nice and (often) cheap parts to rejuvenate or rebuilding corroded, "chewing gumed" rubber parts, sub assy or complete brake and clutch systems.

    Cheers !
     
  11. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2008
    976
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hi Ivan...

    Just read your post... Sounds like there is a story or two in conjunction
    with some of your previous cars ("ask me how I know")... Let's here the
    stories, so please share...

    How's the Ghibli Spyder coming along? Looking forward to seeing her at
    Amelia in less than 3 weeks!!!

    Mike
     
  12. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    53,563
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    Boo
    THANKS! I should pick up a cheap used set and see if they can be fitted. They look a bit largish.

    The thing with the ones Maserati uses is that frequently people have difficulty with the fittings leaking when they change them. There are hydraulic thread sealants one can use but I don't really like that idea so maybe a set of these would eliminate the requirement to ever touch the pipe connections. Mine are held in place with a steel over-bracket and the pipes have to be wrestled (bend) a bit when you change them. The one on the regulator is such a breeze by comparison.

    One question though, is there anything on the CX brake accumulator that can be utilized for mounting the head in a fixed position? I can't tell from those photos.
     
  13. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    112
    SoCal
    Hi.. Great continuing information as ever re LHM issues. However, I'm having little luck finding anything re the Bosch dash-switches for the aux' system sled or seat or headlight lifts switch-controls, rams, etc. Search of this thread didn't yield current help, despite suggestions as to Will and Barry. Tried to contact Will (Salt Lake City) who used to do some of this, and also Barry Barisic of Fresno, CA. ALAS, neither one's listed phones work any more, per phone co. Barry's email address ng. No such e-address for Will... have to try snail mail. Any current info appreciated. Interchange Parts list no joy. I'm hoping someone reading this will know newer sources /substitutions /solutions. S.Swain's revenge?

    Thanks again.
    NE
     
  14. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    112
    SoCal
    Thanks again, Art.

    Dave Burnham does seem good for all but the switches &rams (aux system). He mentioned Will's shop (SLC) also for those, but my attempts to contact him so far nil. Ditto B.Barisic. I thought Dave might be an excellent source for what he does. Thanks again.
    Ned
     
  15. abarth69

    abarth69 Karting

    Aug 16, 2011
    238
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Pm sent

    Cheers

    Mark
     
  16. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    279
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    Barry Barisic is no longer servicing rams or switches. He has moved on to other ventures in the hydraulic field. However, there is a gentleman in New Zealand that has place offerings on Maserati Ebay and I can say that he makes hydraulic replacement rams for the Bora that work very well and are rebuildable. I suspect that having him service your factory rams and switches will be equally excellent.
     
  17. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    112
    SoCal
    Thanks! I thought I saw something from there (Maurice?) as to that. Without some trustworthy recommendaton from experience, hard prospect to think of removing these and sending... not quite knowing likely results or satisfaction. Pioneers...

    DOES anyone know real stories/experience re this person and his work? COULD be great if so. Barry news seems unfortunate, and as compounded by not yet finding Will's dispostion from prior good reputation/location in SLC, UT. The Bosch switches/rams/etc. are critical to have supplier and backup supplier.
    Again, thanks. Will advise as may learn more (real) facts. Please do same.
    --Ned
     
  18. barnfieldman

    barnfieldman Rookie

    Apr 18, 2006
    12
  19. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    112
    SoCal
    Good idea to have many possible sources... and would be great to have individual responses from satisfied customers, this forum. I've talked to some MBZ600 owners, mostly w/o gleaning much so far. However, it's a natural resonance. Nice call.

    I'll try to correspond with as many leads as I can find. Below, mention made that Barry Barisic not in this anymore. The eBay lead, Maurice has yet to respond to my enquiry. Most Citroen based experts aren't expert as to the Bosch switches, mostly the main Pump/accumulators/regulator parts. All good, but these latter don't seem to say, except as to Will's Imports of SLC UT, who it may be for the peripheral matters (the switches).

    Persistance. Excelsior. Etc.
    Keep this going, please.
    NE
     
  20. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    A friend of mine rebuilt his switches many years ago and said it wasn't terribly difficult, just some small O-rings but that's all I know. Maybe you should have a look see?

    There have been a couple leads on new cylinders in the Maserati section recently. One was a Norwegian or Swedish company I think. I found their website but there's no English version and I couldn't find any internet references for people who sold their stuff in the USA. Those were for headlamp lifts and maybe the pedal rack? Certainly not the seat cylinder as it's too bulky of an item.
     
  21. khamsin433

    khamsin433 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2009
    254
    Birmingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Balbir
    I've used the following outfit in the UK. They rebuilt both switches/ junction blocks as well as the lifting rams for the headlights on my Khamsin. Not local to you but in case you have no joy elsewhere.

    Pleiades
    Unit 12A Brookside Industrial Estate
    Sawtry
    PE28 5SB
    United Kingdom

    email - Pleiades@tesco.net

    Tel 01487 831239

    Regards

    Bal
     
  22. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    112
    SoCal
    >>Thanks. Apparently switchbody in/out LHM ports aren't so much the problem as where the switchlever stalk emerges. O-rings, clips, etc. for in/outs may be available, others found them years back, but I have no current source. Trying correspondence abroad, variously. Have no source in Italy as yet. Lately visited MBZ Classic here in Irvine and chatted with head parts guy Jeff re what they do for rebuilds, NOS, other as to the Bosch switches for Pullman 600 limo's. Alas, he agreed all the older skilled hands have retired or otherwise unavailable. He said they're trying abroad (or anywhere) they can trust to their high standards. All specifics /hard-facts welcome re current contact coordinates now active and offering services on this topic.
    Best regards, and ... drive on!!
    NE
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #98 staatsof, Feb 28, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
    Have you taken it apart yet?

    My friend who is an engineer was able to find the rubber parts required from McMaster at the time.
    I don't know what's bespoke to that unit itself but if you're uncomfortable with tackling it it seems like that German vendor should be able to handle the task. They as well as the English one look like good resources.

    BTW, for any lurking future Bora owners out there. This sort of work isn't something you're doing very regularly. I'd characterize this as a once in the lifetime of the car sort of thing.

    The accumulators on the other hand are something you'll have to replace periodically. Fortunately thye're reasonable and easy to get.

    Those cylinders are the the sticky ones though. Plan on at least servicing the the O-rings at the hard pipe connection points as was the case for my car when it was 10 years old. Once you hit 20+ years old figure on renewing the lift cylinders and as long as you then end up with a ones that have replaceable seals then it's fairly easy and very cheap.

     
  24. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    112
    SoCal
    >>Great stuff. Outstanding requests to email addresses lately supplied hereunder as to Wil of SLC, UT; german; UK, and NZ sources. Will advise.

    All above info' perspective you just mentioned, Bob, and as reflected by Ivan's deep experience as stated way earlier below, indicate this is just a question of time and effort for these last parts. I'm completely sold on this system, as it has performed very strongly for me all this while. Just renewed entire braking circuit. Entirely understandable that aux-circuit would age and need services/replacements as indicated. I'd encourage anyone otherwise interesting in a Bora to be unintimidated, as the rewards are great indeed (and aux-circuit can be worked-around as needed, for awhile). So unique. Great performance. Satisfying.

    Again, more thanks. I'll report back as developments may occur.
    Best,
    NE
     
  25. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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