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Citroen hydraulics - Khamsin, Bora, early Merak, late Indy

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by thecarnut, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi all,

    I'm looking for the thread dimensions of the plug attaching the hydraulic pipe to the light hydraulic cylinder : they are 2 per cylinder.
    Is it Metric or BSP thread and what size ?
    any idea of a source of such plug ?

    thanks in advance,
     
  2. helmut1014

    helmut1014 Rookie

    May 11, 2008
    19
    3/8-24 UNF

    Helmut
     
  3. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi Helmut,

    Thanks for your quick response

    cheers
     
  4. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    704
    New York and Norway
    Full Name:
    Art
    I just called the number above and spoke with Will in SLC. He is firmly and definitely open for business.

    He suggested he may have been away on vacation and maybe his answering machine was full or didn't pick up back in February, March whatever.

    Bottom line: "Reports of his demise are premature".

    Best of luck with your hydraulics.
    - Art
     
  5. lambotom

    lambotom Karting

    Apr 12, 2011
    72
    Hi all,
    Anyone knows how to dismantle / open up the hydraulic rams used to lift the headlight pods on a Bora/Khamsin? One of mine is leaking around the main piston ...

    Thanks!
    Tom, Belgium
     
  6. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    442
    Save yourself a lot of time,agony and money.
    Contact Maurice in New Zealand; always perfect, fast, guaranteed work from an amazing gentleman who happens to be a Bora owner too!

    See:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVXf9VG15Uo

    (No relation; just a very satisfied client for many years)

    Regards.
     
  7. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
    162
    Sydney Australia
    Full Name:
    Greg G
    I, 2nd the above comments.. Once he receives them he will send them back in 2 days. You wont find a more perfect gentleman to deal with.
    Greg
     
  8. achimguenther1

    Nov 6, 2011
    15
    Germany, Baunatal
    Full Name:
    Achim Günther
    Hello Tom,
    The cylinders are from Bosch, also used in Mercedes 600 Pullman
    There are Mercedes 600 specialists in Germany who offer the repair, but its not cheap. Names: Schiek, Will, chromschrauben24.de
    One has fotos of the dismantled cylinders and the valves.

    I openended my cylinders ( Khamsin) by myself:
    The upper part is glued.
    I opened it in the following way:
    I made a special tool so that i can draw the upper part.
    Then I used a hot air (hair) dryer and made it very hot.
    There are very small holes in the upper part.
    When the glue is fluid and comes out of the small holes, you can open the cylinder.

    I didnt find the rubber parts, so I asked an hydraulic specialist to change the design, so that its possible to use modern standard hydraulic sealings.
    Actually waiting for tryout.

    I expect, that your cylinders are also leaking, where the pipes are conected. Here are small brass rings and behind them are rubber rings. You can pull out the brass rings with an M4 winding drill.( rings become destroyed)

    The brass rings and rubber rings are available from Mercedes 600 specialist "chromschrauben24.de"

    I have my fotos not here,
    Please send me an e-Mail to: achim.guenther@online.de, then I can send you fotos.

    There is also a company in France, repairing the cylinders.

    Best Regards

    Achim
     
  9. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
    1,045
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hello Achim...

    Ich werde auch gerne Ihre Bilder sehen. Die werden mir bestimmt helfen eines Tages.
    Ich werde Ihnen eine private e-mail schicken in die nächste paar Tagen. Meine Deutsch ist
    nicht was es einmal war, und Ich hoffe sie können das lesen...

    Mike
     
  10. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    65,146
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    +1

    They are held together in an interlocking fashion with the injection of nylon into the machined grooves on the cylinder and on the inside of the end cap. For most people trying to get these apart is beyond their capabilities. Use one of the people who services them such as that listed above and hopefully you'll end up with an easily serviced screw on end cap with replaceable O-rings. After that it's never a big issue again.
     
  11. au-yt

    au-yt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Aug 13, 2006
    5,085
    Burradoo... Actually
    Full Name:
    Graeme
    I have sucessfully rebuilt BOSCH Micro Hydraulic actuators, they can be pulled apart the material used to assemble them is a plastic that melts at 120C.
    There is also a nylon guide at the head of the actuator that will also melt if not disaaembled carefully using heat and a bearing puller, the seals can be bought but not the nylon guide. The main issue with all this isnt the seals in the actator but the "staple fitting" seals in the actuator housings that the main issue, as they go hard and once disturbed need new seals and there is the next issue they been remade. My advice if you can get some one to rebuild them with a guarantee of no leaks do.
     
  12. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    65,146
    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    I replaced the coupler-to-tubing seal in my seat lift quite some time ago and that was a pretty simple job.

    Are these no longer available?

    If it were me I'd just get the fully new SS units being made now. Why bother with these original units when the new ones are so serviceable?
     
  13. au-yt

    au-yt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Aug 13, 2006
    5,085
    Burradoo... Actually
    Full Name:
    Graeme
    #113 au-yt, Nov 29, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
    The Staple seals I managed to get some from a guy years ago who serviced 600 mercs but I also tried to get a seal company to make seals epic fail. The seals need to be cut from a specially extruded Buna"N" tube if that helps any one not turned from solid stock and then cut to length, No, there isnt a square section seal commerically available. From memory seal dimensions are, 4mm OD 1.5mm ID 2.5mm thick.
    As for the SS units I agree totally, Im into serviceabiity but as the cars become more valuable collecters want car that are correct and there by lies the conundrum.
     
  14. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    65,146
    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    You think those are an originality issue? I say find another buyer. They are pretty hard to spot on a Bora and those SS units are far better than brand new original pieces. But that's just me ... ;)
     
  15. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi all,

    I've designed and build new cylinders for my Bora.
    The Bosch ones are ok for the lights but not for the seat in the Bora :
    The actuation lever is too much offset from the cylinder axis driving a lot of tears on the rubber parts of the actuator.
    I found miniature cylinders which are much more "heavy duty" built and I've just remachined them to adapt fittings and dimensions.
    Ok for the seat and the lights : general dimensions are the same.
    Otherwise, some cottages businesses exist here in Europe and are able to sale some replica of the original Bosch.
    Those new parts have the advantages to be just screwed and very easy to service if required : Metric dimensions and very easy to find seals (very common in any hydraulic shop)
    Whatever the solution : it's much cheaper than rebuilt / NOS / refurbished original Bosch.

    Cheers,
     
  16. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    442
    +1
     
  17. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    65,146
    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    Sounds very interesting. As I said it WAS that seal on the tube that leaked and poured a puddle into the carpet of my Bora.

    That whole mechanism for lifting the seat is rather crude and off center as well. Mine tilts my LH drive car seat to the left because of this.

    I know a guy who was working on replacing ALL of the LHM activators with electric motors. But I think that project got put on hold due to the 2008 crash.

    If you like to share your source and photos that would be most welcomed.
    I know someone on here, perhaps it was you?, once before mentioned adapting some off the shelf cylinders and they were Scandinavian in origin. I did have some trouble navigating the website. But I could find no distributor of those products over here.

    I don't remember anything about the one for the seat though and it sounds like you've identified and solved that bushing leak issue?

     
  18. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    442
    To follow up and clarify I had Maurice build new SS serviceable rams for everything; lights, seats & pedal.
    Also had him rebuild all the hydraulic switches.
    Finally everything works perfectly.

    As added insurance we also created a custom valve to shut down the hydraulic fluid into the interior secondary functions as Maserati tried to do with that ridiculous shut off valve in the engine compartment. Not only does the Maserati valve not work properly, but by the time you opened the rear latches and reached it (in the dark!) the interior would be flooded with LHM (trust me, I KNOW!).
    I carried Maurice's jewel like (it really is an amazing piece of work) shut off valve into the interior next to the drivers seat. Thus allowing immediate access in an emergency.
    Needless to say I have never had to use it since he rebuilt everything.
    Nonetheless it feels good to know that it is right next to me!

    The Bora hydraulics issue can only be put to bed by a systemic approach; fixing a leak here and one there every six months is a surefire way of going insane!
    Bite the bullet and sort it all out once and for all.

    Regards.
     
  19. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    113
    SoCal
    Congratulations Boralogist !

    Nice thorough treatment, and nifty re the aux' valve upgrade too. Enviable. I'm having to consider all that, just by virtue of your story. Mine not leaking currently anywhere, but have become a big believer in preventative maintenance. Did all the spheres etc. a few years back, as they were due, but those valves at the dash always suspect and occasionally leaked. All four brake-sets fully rebuilt. Alas, not yet the supply lines (having seen warnings, must attack same ASAP but it is SoCal and I may have some longer life in them than if say Canada). Not quite certain as to the best brand lines, braided stainless assumed. Sources please?

    As anything can happen when shipping rare parts, and fearing the worst always, I wonder how to ease one's mind about a backup set of everything if it gets lost on return (after all the work was done and paid of course). Is all that stuff replaceable or unobtainium?

    Worrywart complex tonight, I guess. Any thoughts nonetheless?
    Any/all further details on what you did, problems encountered/solved, pictures, full objective discourse, etc. all much appreciated. Sometimes hard to get more than just the highlights here on the forum.
    Best regards,
    NE
    --PS... funny to me how well the braking system itself does work, once one is used to it (despite words of some impatient journalists, etc.). I get to preferring it over others.
     
  20. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    65,146
    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    Are you aware of the corrosion issue of the hard lines in the engine compartment along the subframe under the headers? It's a real and very dangerous issue hidden by those little tubing insulators. When that goes it's also a potential fire starter. There was an alert about this in the MIE magazine years ago. It was discovered on California cars. I found it on my then low mileage car while doing a restoration of the engine compartment. After unfurling those metal tabs the brake line literally fell in half. Several other cars had the same exact issue in that one spot.

    As for the hoses. I had mine made at an aircraft hose shop, SS braid and teflon liners.

    The hose from the pump to the fire wall cross member was always failing due to stress in the connection. So I had that made up the same way with an additional screw on angle adapter to relieve the stress on the connector.

     
  21. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Hi all,

    1 )I know that Maurice cylinders are pretty good from reputation.
    I was personnaly in touch with him, and is very prone to give advice etc.
    Very good feeling, looks like a nice chap
    2) I don't know how to post pics but I can forward you some adress to procure "heavy duty" and quite common ( to avoid obsolescence management in the long term) hydraulics cylinders and bits, instead of reusing those quite weak Bosch cylinders & ancillaries
    3) some other guys are making cottage business manufacturing Bosch alike parts with easy to fix seals

    Hence we've have 3 solutions to deal with...
    Any other suggestions ?
     
  22. lambotom

    lambotom Karting

    Apr 12, 2011
    72
    Hello Villard,
    Kindly forward the specs of the "heavy duty and quite common" cylinders, any help we can have is highly apreciated!

    I think the engineer at Bosch (Bosch! who would expect that from Bosch!) was
    1. left by his girlfriend 2. had his dog pass away 3. crashd his car
    all on the sme day. So then went on and designed a high pressure hydraulic cylinder that glued together by something left over in his fridge.

    Tom
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    65,146
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    If you need help posting photos let me know.

    Basically once you're past the probationary period on here there's a spot at the end of the posting page, a box labeled manage attachments.

    Try posting a single photo at a time then exit that page and preview your post. You can go back an add more each time.

    The reason for this is if you post more than 2 or 3 at a time it can blow up. If your photo is too large (it will tell you) then we can work on creating a reduced size version. But this forum software is pretty good now about automatically resizing the the photos on the fly.

    Bob S.
     
  24. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Gotcha !
    I've tried with too many pictures and have crashed the stuff.
    I'll try again later.
    Otherwise i can send pics of my ram prototypes pics to somebody able to post them.
    I can also forward pics of the Bosch lookalike chinese replicak, distributed by several independant Maserati parts dealer, which are easy to dismantle but i have no idea and no feedback of their dependability...
    They look too good to be true, and are still built and designed like the original ones.
     
  25. Villard

    Villard Rookie

    Nov 19, 2013
    25
    FRANCE
    Full Name:
    VILLARD
    Be extremely careful when using stainless steel hoses :
    Lot of aluminum parts (engine block, ancillaries etc) and copper / bronze parts around.
    So you'll trigger some galvanic corrosion which is worse than the corrosion made by the small PVC plastic stuff clipped around all the hydraulic piping of the car.
    Mix of copper / tin / Aluminum / SS definitely not an option if parts are not fully insulated by paint / non conductive materials otherwise you'll reinvent the battery and trigger very agressive corrosion.

    Old PVC parts (such as the small liner tubes)are sweating hydrochloric acid and collecting water when aging and they are deteriorating the hydro piping. hence the alert in the MIE magazin.
    Must be replaced during resto. by modern neutral plastic. put some electric insulation grease around all metal hydraulic piping before bending again the metallic strap welded to the body.
    Good to have quite dirty and greasy car because it's a good medicine to avoid this corrosion on not yet restored car. thanks the "Vino verde" or engine oil spills...
     

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