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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by CornersWell, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    great story! Hope someone says the same to me sometime - what a badge of honour!

    Your book "The Colonel's Ferraris" inspired a lot of dreams for me. I bought a 348 Challenge that is the youngest car to appear on the Maranello poster specifically so I could have a car that could carry the robin's egg blue stripe. It is the only car on that poster that I could afford. You are to blame sir :):):)
     
  2. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    I don't know of ANY Australian Ferraris that have undergone the certification. If what you are saying is true, you won't be seeing too many (any?) Ferraris entered in the Classic Adelaide. I would add that I don't have any faith in the local Ferrari dealers having the skill/knowledge to conduct a detailed investigation on the older models. New 599's and 430's are the bread and butter, go back a couple of models and the independants get all the work.
     
  3. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    Jun 15, 2006
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    That booklet was probably printed in 2007, when they may have been discussing some sort of Ferrari official connection with the Classic Adelaide event, that hasn't eventuated. Also, Classiche seems to have begun with a kind of religious dogma inside Ferrari, they can't produce any literature that doesn't include it.

    You will have no trouble getting an entry in Classic Adelaide - it has nothing to do with Ferrari spa. You'll be lucky to find more than 4 or 5 local pre-73 V12's in the event and none of them will Classiche certified.
     
  4. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2006
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    Pieter Melissen
    I would strongly propose that a mod takes out all the Adelaide Stuff and put it in a separate thread. I think that will be a win-win situation for all of us.
     
  5. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    What I am saying is true from the perspective of Ferrari Asia Pacific but I am sure is completely irrelevant to the Classic Adelaide organising committee. What is amazing to me is that Ferrari Asia Pacific had the audacity to make such a hollow laughable statement to begin with.

    My understanding is that Ferrari Asia Pacific would support your local dealers in the certification process. Certainly Hong Kong also lacks the expertise but Ferrari Asia Pacific attended Hong Kong to give a talk to owners with old cars.

    My understanding is that a number of owners in Hong Kong agreed to have cars certified but nothing has happened as Maranello has to provide original spec to the local dealer to see if there is anything obvious that has changed. I have heard that this even extends to the colour of the car and interior
     
  6. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    I think we will see more of this, it's leverage. Look at it from Ferrari's side, if you want us to help underwrite your event, play by our rules...

    The game is changing.
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Not so sure about that. I remember OG telling me that Goodwood would soon require "Classiche Certification" for Ferrari's to appear there. I told him Charles was friend of mine and I some how doubted that.

    One of us was right.
     
  8. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    I'm sure that Charles can underwrite his event on his own, if need be. Some of the lesser events may be willing to play for pay.

    You and I will probably both agree that it is going to be interesting to see how Cavallino will turn out.
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Turn out as in requiring concours entrants to be "Certified"? Do you think it will come to that? I think I can say with certainty that PBSCW won't be requiring that...
     
  10. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    Talk to any of the (living) founders of the Ferrari Club of America, and I think you will discover that one of the reasons for the club's formation was to give the few american owners at that time some iota of leverage against the stranglehold Chinetti/FNA had on them for parts and cars. My opinion is that if the factory gets even more heavy-handed than I think it already is w/ the pernicious creep of "required" certifications (that in certain instances have attempted to re-write history) AND that creep makes its way into FCA events, then you will see a rebellion of independently-minded owners who will abandon FCA in droves. A new club will form, and events such as the PBSCW will continue to flourish, and will get even more of a vintage flavor.

    Just my opinion.

    For what it's worth, none of the vintage Ferraris in my family will ever go through Classiche so long as we own them.
     
  11. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    Last time I checked, Ferrari SpA granted the rights of the FCA to use the name and the likenesses of their corporate identity. These can all be easily pulled if the powers in Maranello feel that they're not getting what they want. Especially when you start looking at who is underwriting the events, FNA and their dealers. Besides, owners are still attracted to the brand because they want a part of the magic, in the long run, Ferrari will cut out the middleman.

    I am expecting it to creep in. What will be fun to watch for an independent like me (I haven't been an FCA member for sometime, have a well known issue about paying to be in a club to enjoy cars I own, but that is for another thread) is what will happen between the IAC/PFA and the Classiche program.

    If I've learned one thing hanging around this hobby is that you have to love opera. They are just cars after all...
     
  12. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    Thank goodness!
     
  13. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    +1
     
  14. Doug Nye

    Doug Nye Karting
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    Jan 21, 2008
    203
    Absolutely right Jim. We select our Ferrari invitations on our criteria - on what we regard as real, significant or in some way especially worthy - not anyone else's, including Fiat's. There seems to be a whispering campaign which in effect - with the factory's collusion or without it - seems to be aimed at extending coercion by insidiously inveigling or pressuring major event organisers globally... I really don't appreciate that, and I'm confident many of you guys don't either.

    DCN
     
  15. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2006
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    I hear Klaus Werner will be at the LeMans Classic, but make sure then he'll be at the Revival meeting....that will teach them a lesson..
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Very, very true.

    Best
     
  17. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    Exactly. That is why I mentioned the feedback that I got on Classic Adelaide as incredible as it is. Our only weapon is to communicate and band together
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Indeed.

    JS
     
  19. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    #244 Bryanp, May 31, 2008
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
    The trademark issue was not an issue when the FCA first started; my guess is that it reared its head around the same time that SpA "encouraged" Gerald Roush to stop using the horse on the cover of FML (early 80s?).

    Your post helps make my point; the more heavy-handed the factory becomes in requiring xyz (which will cost you money) for participating in events, including FCA events, independently-minded owners will band together much as they did in 1961 and form another club, free of factory constraints. Voting with our feet. I am already working to put together an informal, no-dues vintage driving club in the mid-atlantic that is horizontally integrated around vintage european sports cars instead of vertically integrated around a single marque. I am finding that I have much more in common w/ wrench-turners of old Astons, Jags, Alfas, etc. than new Ferrari owners who have never worked on or have no interest in the old cars.

    I am surprised that you are a supporter of the Classiche certification program when the notion of paying to be in a club to enjoy your cars is offensive to you. You and I are both students of this great marque - isn't it even more offensive to you that you should be charged over 35 years' worth of FCA dues just so the Factory can tell you what you probably already know about your car? I'm not looking to get in a flame war w/ you, Erik (your VeloceToday F1 analysis is one of my favorite reads during the season); I'm just surprised that you don't take issue w/ the program.

    Bryan
     
  20. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    I'm a supporter of the program because I think in the long run, it will be good for owners. Several other OEMs have similar programs (Mercedes and Aston for example) and I know I would like to still be able to get OEM correct headlamps if I hit a deer in my 365 in 2030 when I am retired, not a reproduction part that isn't just right that was cobbled together in someone's wood shop.

    I don't take your post as a flame war, the older I get, the more I think that market forces will correct the wrongs. I hope Ferrari is reading these posts and tailors their products to give the customers what they want. I also feel that the knowledgeable public should tar and feather them for passing a car off as something it is not nor ever was. This is still their growth part of the program, I expect to see several iterations of it before they have it right. Remember, this isn't a program for today's owners, but those in the future.

    And I have seen first hand that several "trusted" sources in today's world aren't when it comes to these cars, and that is the main reasons why I prefer car shows where I just take a single malt and head to my own garage.
     
  21. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
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    What are the chances that these concerns will be aired in the mainstream (or specialty) press? It seems that some mags are too deeply obliged to the makers for test cars and ads to remain bias free.
     
  22. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    I hear everything you are saying; I think that if Ferrari's true goal is to be the definitive source for correct OEM parts for our old beasts, then I will be there w/ checkbook in hand. If the day comes when I can order parts for my old Ferraris from a catalog that is truly stocked w/ the vast majority of the bits that I need, the way I can for a 1959 Mercedes 190SL, then I think Classiche will be a huge success. But coming out of the gates with practically nothing but an expensive (and questionable as to its accuracy) program to "certify" cars was a grave mistake, in my humble opinion. All this has garnered Ferrari is a lot of mistrust and ill will amongst most of the vintage ownership that I have had contact with. In our various forays into the Classiche parts program, the Factory is batting about 20% - the few successes have been where Ferrari UK/Maranello Concessionaires has been able to connect us to third party suppliers who have been able to come up w/ certain parts. While we are grateful that Ferrari was able to refer us to the correct party, in my opinion they have a long, long way to go before being able to call themselves the be-all end-all for OEM Ferrari parts.
     
  23. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    #248 CornersWell, May 31, 2008
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
    Judge,

    I think, if you look at these programs (including Jaguar's), you'll find that they're significantly different from Ferrari's. I agree that it's nice to be able to get long-out-of-production parts, but not at the expense of having Ferrari tell me that something's not original on my car and, thus, it's not eligible for Classiche.

    A little story. A friend of mine recently sold an older race car to a senior level Ferrari executive. The car had never been raced and was, to the best of my friend's knowledge, totally original (notwithstanding a few safety upgrades). Several months after the deal closed and the funds transferred from escrow, the executive called my friend and told him that the Classiche department had found a few things that weren't original such as the sealant used on the interior of the block. Said executive attempted to re-negotiate the price based on this, and other, Classiche-declared "issues." My friend told him to basically pound sand (in Italian, of course) and referred him to his attorney.

    The point being is how far is Classiche intending to take this? Unless you own the car from new and know exactly what's been done to it, you simply cannot verify everything as original. And, we're talking about the 30-plus-year-old sealant in the motor. So, what if you use non-original nuts to screw on the valve covers during an engine re-build? What if the Ferrari dealer did the rebuild and they used non-original nuts? What if they sent the parts out for coating to reduce friction? What if...

    MB, Porsche and Jaguar's programmes are very different, from what I know of them. For a relatively nominal fee, they'll tell you what the car was when it left their control and was sold to the first owner. After that, it's up to the buyer to get comfortable with what it is. Ferrari's is far more expensive, intrusive and declarative. Why? What purpose? If I want to buy a 250 GTO, I know where they are, what their histories are and whom to speak to. I'll wager that most GTOs aren't Classiche eligible. If I want to buy a 430, I know where to go, too. Strangely, though, it's not eligible for Classiche if it comes with a Tubi exhaust, even if the dealer installed it for me.

    Ferrari continues to show how it is possible to bilk clients beyond inflated service and maintenance even after they've bought a car. Tell me why is it necessary for SpA to have this program to tell you you bought a 430? And, shouldn't every new Ferrari come with a Classiche certificate, then, too?

    CW
     
  24. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

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    #249 410SA, May 31, 2008
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
    That, right there, is the definitive indicting statement of Ferrari Spa.

    Everything else in this debate is moot. If the factory sold the car it should be automatically certified.
     
  25. Ney

    Ney F1 Rookie
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    Apr 20, 2004
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    HA! Of course it would not be automatically certified. Ferrari would be giving you something that you haven't PAID for. I am sure that if you pick up your new F430, they would be happy to prepare a certification book for you if you ask, AND PAY THE FEE.
     

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