Classiche Application Stories

I am curious if any of the traders in this category have comments from their experience with actual cash-in-fist buyers. Are the buyers asking for Classiche? Are they likely to pay a premium for the certification or is the deal easier to close because of it?

That are likely many on this forum but Tom S, Bill Noon and Mike Sheehan come to mind.

Jeff

 

Jeff We are in agreement, a genuine fakedo wont pass these guys its the stories cars that will be hard for them . There are several guys with impecable reputation who have spent near a lifetime knowing the really valuable cars, none of them are working for Calssiche that I know of, M

 

I just paid double for a 308 because it was certified. Some guy named Matteo sold it to me.

 

this is where it gets ridiculous.
once a car is sold the manufacturer has no right to tell an owner he cannot fit this bit or that bi or respray his car a different colour.
imo (not that that means much in the big picture) Ferrari have overstepped the mark here big time

 

I bought his Boxer. I also paid extra because I thought the "story" was value-added.

Peter

 

have i got this right ???

they rebuilt the car with a new engine.
then they built a new car round the original engine

and now they want to destroy the earlier (hence original) car - despite having built both themselves.
surely thats a major court case in waiting.

 

Why do the financially successful owners of high dollar cars feel the need to "prove" the pedigree of their cars to anybody? One would think that such owners would be more secure in their own stature and therefore they wouldn't care whether anybody else approves of their cars or not. It all sounds like country club snobbery.

 

What really rubs me the wrong way is Ferrari's arrogance. For a generation, they didn't give a damn about the old bangers. Now that they smell a buck in the air, they want control.

Let's compare this to Porsche. You don't see them suing Beck for making Spyder replicas do you? Moreover, Porsche's Kardex may be the only honest program out there. That is, Porsche can tell you how the car was equipped the day it rolled off the line. After that, you're on your own.

The sad part is that I doubt that Ferrari could even do a Kardex type program. They don't have the records on many of these cars.

Dale

 

I asked for the build sheets for one of mine only to learn that Ferrari has lost it.

 

youve got that right m8, dreadful business.

 

Maybe the build sheets were misfiled. On one car they sent me the build sheet for the number that came after the one I requested! In short order the correct sheets were sent at no cost...
People familiar with how the records were stored said they were just sitting around in boxes and yes pages had gotten lost. Ferrari was quite concerned that no mention was made of the specific build sheet s/n's that were unaccounted for. It could prove too great a temptation for the builders.
Perhaps since the fancy reorganization for the old records things are more accessable now?
CH

 

On the face of it unbelievable. The should be a way of reconciling the existence of both.

 

The sad thing is, Porsche's efficiency comes from their being decendants of the Nazi style of German military efficiency. The Nazis were cataloging humans before they were cataloging Porsche build sheets.

 

Equally sad is the thought that German efficiency began in 1933. A more balanced view of history would indicate otherwise.

 

Sound like what Shelby is doing to the SAAC. My quick understanding is that SAAC (Shelby American Automobile Club) has been the defacto keeper of the Shelby flame, creating a significant database and creating an organization devoted to the preservation of Shelby heritage. Now Shelby wants to reconsume all their efforts and its leading to a real p!ssing match.

Now I understand there are 2 sides to the story, you just wish things could be worked out in a less litigious and hostile environment. Just like the Ferrari situation, it leads to bad press and bad vibes.

regards

ken

 

They do have the records. The sad thing is they don't have people who would understand the way they built cars 50 years ago and so the records are largely useless. It is the same old story every time; the most valuable historical documents usually end up with people who keep them as trophies and donät really understand them - or care. Best wishes, Kare

 

I have been involved in researching and investigating Ferrari history for 40-odd years - at a reasonably high level, up to and including personal discussions with The Old Man himself, plus many other leading figures in the saga.

During that time I have mostly enjoyed close-quarters exposure to a wide range of assorted Ferraris, to the people who have owned them, prepared them, restored them, run them, raced them...and in some cases to people who have faked and falsified them, and certainly more who have sometimes criminally misdescribed them...

In my view today, only the most naive, or the most unremittingly mercenary, of owners should give the factory's flawed Certifiche system any credence whatsoever.

I have heard and in some cases seen growing evidence of this worthless programme approving unworthy cars - and rejecting some which are worthy - of owners being pressured to invest large sums in acceding to the factory's demands for costly work to be done by them (and by them only) before certification can proceed - of ill-qualified factory employees and apparatchiks seeking to run a programme which appears to be aimed more at generating corporate profit than ensuring genuinely improved historic integrity for the marque.

Any owner who believes that having a factory mechanic - who has worked for Ferrari for 5-6 years - number-stamp a replacement cylinder block makes his car 'more genuine' than if an identical replacement block has been number-stamped by a Ferrari specialist with 20-40 years' experience, plainly has his head buried up his own exhaust pipe.

Modern factories do not have on their strength craftsmen with the wealth of dedicated experience and love of the marque which so many outside specialists plainly have in spades; certainly within Italy, very much so within the UK and widely across the USA.

The most enduring, most dedicated and most knowledgeable Ferrari owners of my acquaintance frankly giggle at Ferrari's chutzpah in promoting the certification service they 'offer' today. It is surely little more than a money machine - not in my view a credible 'service' - aimed squarely at know-nothing modern owners, at those with low confidence in their own cars, and at that particularly sad group who believe that the resale value of their properties will be restricted without 'factory certification'.

Set against the demonstrably questionable value of such 'certification' - and the debatable qualifications and opinions of some of those operating this programme - those who go along with this particular process are, in my opinion, allowing themselves to be taken for a ride, mugs easily separated from their money.

Proper Ferrari people do not need to pay a Fiat sub-department to know what they own. Get a grip.

DCN

 

Your point being?

 

Another issue is that once a car sets out into the world it often gets changed around. Series I 250 GTO's had their original bodies removed and Series II bodies mounted. P3's were turned into 412P's/ a P 3/4/ a 412P into a 330 Can Am. Two P 4's were turned into 350 Can Am's. Chassis were restamped, engines blew up and were replaced, engines wound up in different cars at later dates. All of this was done by the factory.

These cars were also a lot cruder than many sitting on the Lawn at various Concourses. I recently became the first owner of a 40 year old Ferrari directly from the manufacture. Before delivery the manufacture cleaned her up but if she's invited to Pebble I think many will be surprised as to just how crude she is.

IMO the only thing that really matters is what things really are and FULL disclosure and allowing intimate inspection so that people can judge for themselves.

 

Sir, you are more than a breath of fresh air.

All, we're talking about cars here. Yes, they are very cool cars, and the stories that they could tell are even cooler. But you have to know that future generations will be aghast. Foul smelling gasoline is injected into a hole where a sparking plug ignites a combustion that turns a crankshaft which spews noxious gases into the environment and on and on.

If someone chooses to "invest" millions of dollars into one of these old dinosaurs, they are either obsessed or foolish. The obsessed, I can understand. The foolish, I don't care about.

Also, as a capitalist, I see nothing wrong with the factory trying to make a buck.

As one of the obsessed, I do have a problem with people buying into this.

Dale

 

The point being that it is not surprising that a German built Porsche would be more documented than an Italian built Ferrari. The Germans seem to have a history of keeping everything in order and well documented, whether it be automobiles or humans.

And judging by what Doug Nye is saying, the factory classiche program means about as much to a dedicated Ferrari historian as the PCGS grading system means to a veteran numismatist: very little.

 

The classic car world, as epitomized by Pebble Beach, starts with the premise that the restoration should be to the standards of what the factory could have built the car to if it had had the time and money. This is absolute perfection with fit, finish, paint quality and aligned bolt heads that were never achieved on anything built. I've been away from it for a long while but in the past the color schemes were open to the owner/restorers desires as long as the colors and type of paint are period correct; no metalics on a car that predates the availability. This makes a 100 points.

At the other end you now have the National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS) that wants restorations to duplicate factory bad fits and overspray to make 100 points.

The Ferrari standard has evolved over time. The desire for absolute authenticity has certainly increased but everyone still loves seeing the beauty of a Pebble Beach fit and finish. As Napolis points out with the Dino these two concepts are not the same.

What I do find troubling is how many of the old racers all have matching serial number engines. Right, during its course of life it never blew up, never got an engine change in preparation for another race, etc. Full disclosure, as Napolis mentions, probably needs to start including the internal numbers and all the other bits and pieces. Sure everybody wants to have all their matching number claims but we are talking about old, used and habitually abused cars. I remember an award winning and very well known 250TR that had whispers about an engine block that was restamped so it could have matching numbers. Should we accept the mis-matched numbers more readily to stop the misrepresentation? Would you rather have a non-number matching engine that was correct from the period or one of the new Classiche creations with its little repro indicator on the number stamping? Full disclosure on all the numbers might actually bring more of all this to light.

There is a California Spyder that was restored on the East Coast in the late 70s/early 80s that was rebodied so it is symetrical left to right. Or the 206SP that was rebodied with thicker aluminum during its restoration so stones wouldn't dent the body as easily.

Jeff