Classiche Application Stories

The intake manifolds and phenolic insulator blocks are made for Solex carbs, but the car has Weber carbs. Some of the 400SA's used Weber carbs on Solex manifolds from the factory, but the only way to tell for sure would be to look at the build sheets.
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Also, the Classiche emblem isn't original.



Nice posts, Motob. Were the items you highlighted installed before/after certification?

 

You guys are NOT understanding Italian logic.

If Ferrari themselves bolt ANYTHING on the car it is correct as far as they are concerned. That is the way they think and it is obvious that this is how they are playing this game. While it is rediculous in some ways, it is ultimately correct ... as they made the bloody car in the first place and thus chose what to bolt on it originally too.

So guys please stop trying to be logical in an English/American way and also stop thinking about how the car was ORIGINALLY built (doesn't matter as Ferrari are doing the work anyway, so they will always be right ) ... you need to think Italian. It does makes strange sense. BUT the end result is cars that return to the factory will unlikely still be correct in a historical way ... .

Thus cars that have been crashed (and most early Ferraris, skinny tyres or not, have been ... come on they are fast or competition cars that did have hard lives once) that were NOT fixed by the factory are not going to be correct ... no matter how exact the repairs or restoration.

For example: Ferrari could put an Enzo motor in a 1958 250 TR and it will be 100% correct as far as the factory is concerned, as they did it. It will be noted down as a factory performance upgrade .
Pete

 

MotoB, great posts. Now, what does the certification book purport to cover? Not the marketing materials, but the book itself. I'll check and post.

 

You are 100% correct. Whatever the Ferrari factory installs in or on a Ferrari automobile will be "factory correct"... what a bunch of self appointed experts(mostly from the USA)outside of the Ferrari factory say is of no consequence...period...end of story.

 

My major concern with the classiche certification is that it is at best a certification at a moment in time and is no guarantee of what may be done to the car AFTER certification.

Even if the car(s) in motob's posts were exactly correct at the time of certification, there is no assurance that the car hasn't been modified after certification. It is not as if everything has been sealed in a vault with no one allowed to touch the car. So what really is the value of the certification?

To me then, the classiche certification has some value as to the condition of the car at a single point in time but the value depletes each and every day after that point in time. At some point (1 month? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?) the certification will be pretty stale and of limited or no value IMO.

In its place, proper research, through the internet and in consultation with "experts" (with second opinions as warranted), and a thorough PPI is the best way for a buyer to be assured that the car being sold is what it is represented as being.

Some people do more research on their next plasma TV purchase than they do on the purchase of a big ticket vintage Ferrari. Caveat emptor!

 

You would hope that there was a photograhic record of the car and its details done at time of certification.

 

I've been thinking about what you said (always dangerous, I know) because you and I traveled the same road. When a buddy and I became interested in buying a GTC from a private owner, the first thing I did was to contact Gerald and get the history of the car, which confirmed that it was a real car. We then ran our our compression tests (good) and did a test drive (still good). Next, we went to an experienced body guy, put the car up on the rack, and climbed all over it with pen lights. We could not find ANY evidence of wreck damage. In fact, we concluded that the car was (and still is) a good old car and paid, what at that time, was a market price for it.

We were NOT concerned whether the alternator was original (actually it is). We were NOT concerned whether the radiator was original (it was, but we had to replace it). We were NOT concerned whether the screw heads lined up with the latitude and longitude of Maranello. We knew that we were buying a 40-year old car that had been built by Luigi. We just hoped that our car had been built BEFORE his wife found out about his new mistress.

Buying one of these cars is a leap of faith. You do what you can and then jump in the deep end of the pool.

For us, having a piece of paper or a plaque issued by Fiat would not have been of any value. However, I can see where someone buying at an auction might take comfort in the same. So maybe this is where the real benefit lies.

Dale

 

Damn, I love the Brits. A friend of mine once told me, "We Brits love a fight. How else do you think we managed to rule the world from a rock in the North Sea?"

Hail Britannia!

Dale

 

Except when you go to sell, assuming certified cars sell at a premium.

 

She could have been born a male and later in life had options installed that were available at the time of manufacture. These conversions are not desired by purists. Some people prefer to know in advance that they are getting original equipment.

 

I think the bigger problem is if your wife gets lots of very specific work done to a particular end, then changes her name to "Sophia Lauren Bacall" There's a thin line that shouldn't (or, should?) be crossed... Enhancements aren't forgeries. Homages aren't forgeries. At what point is something an original work versus just a cheap copy?

 

Spot on. Against this background, to regard a process which applies such standards as 'adding value' is surely simple self-delusion. Just like the men said.

DCN

 

A friend of mine was interested in purchasing a Ferrari Dino. He wanted an original flared model. He also had an intent to show the car. My friend found a car that he was interested in. Before he could have it checked out his wife surprised him by purchasing the car for his 40th birthday.

To make a long story short, the reason the first owner was no longer interested in the car was because he found out it wasn't exactly what he wanted. When my friend found out the flairs were not original the selling broker gave him $5,000.00 to compensate. My friend invested in the car and showed it but the unorignal flairs always came back to haunt him. He sold the car at auction.

To answer your question, the addition of unoriginal flairs would be an enhancement. The nondisclosure of unoriginal flairs would be a forgery?

 

yet again you open your mouth and out comes cr4p.

tell me this.
who would you want to entrust your priceless 250 tr or gto to.
an expert company who has continually looked after them for the last 40 odd years or the new factory classiche program whose staff had probably never seen a gto or tr before this new scheme came into being.

 

"My major concern with the classiche certification is that it is at best a certification at a moment in time and is no guarantee of what may be done to the car AFTER certification."


This is an oft repeated criticism of the program, and one repeated by many here who should know better, but who apparently insist on expressing opinions without even having seen a certification book.

The certification book contains many photos of the car taken at the time of certification - the book for my certified car contains 33 photos. Post certification modifications to the areas photographed can be identified by reference to the certification book.

MotoB's post breathes fresh air into a debate so far IMO dominated by blowhardy opinions, hurt feelings on the part of those who find it necessary to assert pride of place in the Ferrari pantheon and second hand stories, rather than specific criticisms.

I'm going to scan and post what "authentic" means, as defined in the certification book, and then we at least will have a few more facts underlying this important discussion.

 

The factory of course. But that was never my point anyway. My point is that the if the factory that creates a product later modifies it, then that modification is "factory correct" regardless of the opinion of some self ordained expert or how experienced they are. If Ferrari Classiche paints a 250GTO pink, then pink is a factory color for a 250GTO...

 

Certificate:
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Disclaimer:
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Authenticity criteria excerpt:
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If it requires an expert, or an examination of factory documentation, to identify that the modification isn't a factory modification, then it is a forgery. Disclosure just avoids the fraud, but doesn't change that the car is forged and can be used as such later. If the flares were different in some obvious way from the factory flares, then it is an "enhancement".

Think about it this way -- nobody ever asks if it is a factory original 400i convertible or an original breadvan. They are what they are and nobody ever is afraid they aren't real. It's the things that look like something else, that may or may not be something else, that are the problem, and this "fake" taint affects the original as well as the fakes. If people simply made hotrods out of the 2+2s, there would be no hard feelings all around; the quality of the thing (hotrod, in this case) would be the only thing under evaluation, not the serial numbers of the factory original rubber door molds that were specific to these 3 alloy bodied race cards blah blah.

But, I'm not a lawyer, I don't own an old ferrari or any old car for that matter.

 

WCH,

Since you have successfully gone through the process I would like to ask a question: What was your motivation/expectation? Seriously, were you viewing this as a future resale enhancement, a general confirmation of what you knew already, related to concours judging, etc.

Was this an older car that had a lot of build variations (I consider older 4 digit serial numbers)? Regular production or dual purpose?

There have been a lot of statements but you have voted with your wallet so I think your opinions may give very credible insight.

Jeff

 

It seems to me that Ferrari has wanted to 'take control' of it's history as a fairly recent thing. They are going through a debate with the Clubs as well at the moment, specifying what sort of logos they can use, trying to control regalia design etc etc. Someone in the hierarchy seems to feel that they can control all aspects of Ferrari life, even once the car leaves the factory. When are they going to start cracking down on the guys who have put 20 inch 'spinners' on their 430s??

 

Jeff - I very much appreciated your comments early in this thread. Why did I certify the car, which is indeed a 4 digit serial number car? Because I am a naive, unremittingly mercenary, world class sucker.

Also: at the time I applied for certification, I had no intention of selling the car and simply was curious about the program. The cost of certification paled in comparison to the cost of a new clutch, an extra set of Borranis, and the like. I wanted to see what the program was all about.

Curiousity.

 

Thank you for the kind comment.

Did you learn anything about the car that you did not already know? Having gone through it what is your opinion of those that were actually in the process? If you had another candidate would you do it again? On your 4 digit car were there any unique features/details that had been hard to previously verify?

Jeff