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Classiche Certification- new rules

Discussion in '308/328' started by Rosey, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    Peter
    I'm not calling anyone stupid, but I think classiche is. I think it's misunderstood by most people, and that's a problem.
     
  2. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
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    All one needs to do to understand what Classiche Certification is, is to simply read the criteria. They aren't judging condition. It isn't a concours. They are checking matching serial numbers and components. See post #92.
     
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  3. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    What they are often not. A big percentage of the 'Maranello approved stuff', is overprized chinese or indian junk and is good for garage queens or presentation of the car, but surely doesn't restore the car to its original reliability.
    And if the parts department cares so little about the quality of the parts they not only supply to us, but also to their own restoration workshops. Why should I trust the certification department more.
    It is, what it is. A way to empty owner's wallets for basically nothing.
    Classic cars are like shares. Value rises and decreases, and rises again without logic. I don't believe, that such paperwork adds a lot of value. I believe, this is wishful thinking of certificate owners.
    I believe this so long till someone shows me sale results of two cars in identical condition. On with and one without certification. And both sold within the same short period.

    Best
    Marti
     
  4. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    Yes, but that's not the perception that most classiche owners want.

    Why bother with it? Don't give me that crap that is not for perceived added value. That's the only reason why anyone would do it, and the car could still be the biggest bucket of bolts on earth. It's a con job by Ferrari and the owners who feel so smug about having it.
     
  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
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    You’re fixated on Classiche’s impact on values. That isn’t what’s being discussed here. Does it add to a cars value? Im sure it does to certain extent, but it mostly adds another layer of provenance.

    As for parts, AGAIN, read the criteria. Classiche verifies major components. The parts don’t necessarily have to be Ferrari reissued parts. I primarily use NOS parts I find through multiple sources. I have also used parts through Maranello in the UK, which I’ve had no issues with. By the way, my IPhone is made in China, and it’s exceptional. The whole “made in China India” thing is a bit old.
     
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  6. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
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    Your entitled to your thoughts, of course. That’s fine. I find that most who find the need to complain about Classiche have some grudge about their cars not being able to qualify for certification for one or multiple reasons. I think people can find many avenues to enjoy their property. It’s best to just respect everyone’s right to do so as they choose. If Classiche works for some, as it seems to for many of the finest owners in the world, than great. If it doesn’t work for you, that’s fine too. Enjoy.
     
  7. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    I mentioned India too. And if looking at certain parts -safety related parts too- I'm pretty sure, that Ferrari doesn't claim the same quality standards as Apple. They chose their far east suppliers not regarding quality, but for max. profit.
    The waterpumps for instance are chinese 1980s quality standard. And there are steering racks out there, which are plain crap.
    I'm in the engineering business since a quarter of a century and I am amazed about common acceptance of low quality.
    And I simply don't want a Classic Ferrari equipped with parts from a chinese backyard smithy.

    Best
    Martin
     
  8. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    I don't care if it works for you or not, I care what it represents but it doesn't represent what people trying to justify it say it represents.

    I'm repeating myself now, but the fact that the biggest piece of crap car can get it speaks volumes.

    Enjoy your high horse though.
     
  9. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    That's the cheapest argument of this discussion. I'm out too.

    Best
    Martin
     
  10. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Yep.
     
  11. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Classiche isn't a stupid thing, of course. They guarantee the car is original and not a copy, first: maybe this is not very important for a 308, of course, but it is that i.e. for a 250 tdf or a 250 California. If anyone doesn't understand what Classiche first certificate is, that's not a problem of Classiche program, of course.


    Classiche accepts a car with (i.e.) a different fuel pump or a different body color or a wrong engine number or a different front spoiler: they will write that on the certificate with red lines under the picture saying i.e. "not original, but correct for the model as available in the original option list" or "not original item" if it's a minor component (i.e. for a wrong fuel pump). So: Classiche certificate describes your car about originality and you will be given the Certificate only if the changes are not too big. I repeat: maybe for a 328 is not so much important, but for (i.e.) a 166 Inter is almost a must for an international buyer.
    I heard of several stories of important cars restored in a not original way that completely failed the Classiche and were sent back without any certificate: here Classiche worked very well.

    ciao
     
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  12. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    New England/FL
    And some "of.......in the world" aren't.

    And some highly values cars have been heavily modified as well.

    Basically, if the number match and it looks original it's good to go.

    So my car is 99% original with the only none original part being about 1/2 pint of paint on the front clip. I'm not counting brake pads and fluids.
     
  13. Rosey

    Rosey Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2015
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    You're wasting your breath Jeff. You can explain till you're blue in the face... some guys get it, some guys don't.
    I get it (and have it on my car) but this is not the first time you've tried to spruke its benefits to a hostile audience and it all falls on deaf ears.
    It's a debate not worth entering into.
     
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  14. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    Correct, some aren’t, which is more than fine. Classiche certainly isn’t a must for credibility. It’s simply another level of verification. For certain cars, particularly very rare and valuable cars, It can be extremely worthwhile. Sounds like your car would be an easy candidate, if you chose to go that route. If that isn’t important to you than that’s fine too. As far as I’m concerned, it’s all about what enhances one’s ownership experience.
     
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  15. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    HA. Very true. No worries. To each their own.
     
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  16. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    I guess it's a personal thing but I can't see how it enhances the ownership experience. I mean, owning the car since new, I got a long fine without it for 20 years.
     
  17. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    All kinds of things enhance ownership. Some like to show at concours, some don’t. Others like to track while some don’t care too. Some like collecting books or models, others couldn’t care less.
     
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  18. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2004
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    To know the vasics of a historic car might be an important value: Original colors, production date, numbers of the main components. If one is the firt owner, he knows all about his car. Otherwise you have to ask Ferrari Classiche or Mr. Massini.
    The point for cars like a 308 are the costs of about $7k.
     
  19. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    I'm not the first owner of my car, but I got all the informations from the factory for free 24 years ago shortly after my purchase. This was before they discovered a new option to rip off owners.
    I would accept this behaviour, if they would care about parts supply in a similar way.
    They aren't even monitoring the market for what's available. Alberto mentioned fuel pumps. While there's meanwhile a german made alternative available, which is an almost perfect substitute for the carb car's BCD corona pump, they still sell the poor Facets.
    Rubber parts are complete junk and current cambelt tensioners are a plastic housing POS. For the latter we have a well known alternative, but regarding rubber parts it's better to leave the old ones alone as long as they still work but just don't look good any more.
    New electrical parts like switches are a permanent bother.
    I could offer more examples, but to make a long story short:

    Why should I trust a company, which cares so little about the former quality of their cars?

    Alberto also mentions vintage cars like 250s are 166. Of course, very little of these cars get driven a lot. Most of them languish in garages or get driven from trailers onto an accurately cut lawn, waiting for the judges. Or are on trailers most of the time travelling from show to show across the continent.
    And the poor Maranello approved repro parts are mostly for the 'cheaper' cars, like our 308s. These cars were never famous for their reliability, though things are way better than what the non experienced folks believe to know. But poor spare parts are making these cars worse than during their era.
    I have my two italian classic cars since 1995/96 and the only breakdowns I experienced were caused by crappy repro parts.

    Owners of the vintage cars have other solutions. If I would have the means for owning a 250 GTO or SWB or similar, I would love to track it or participate in events like the french Tour Auto. But the joy of such activities is all about reliability. So this would probably mean engineering important parts myself and having them manufactured or sourcing reliable alternatives. Again no matter what 'Classiche' says.

    I would be highly interested to know, how big the influence of FerrariUK (Maranello Concessionaires) actually is regarding their repro parts stock.
    Can they decide themselves, what they offer, or do the decisions come from Italy?
    While they are great folks, always helpful and meanwhile fast in response, their parts stock does convince me less and less. At least regarding repro parts.
    I would prefer paying more for a good part, than saving some money and getting questionable junk.

    When buying a car, one of the most important thing for me is how and in what manner the pre owner cared about his car. I slowly get the impression, that a Classiche certificated car needs an especially thorough pre purchase inspection.

    Best
    Martin
     
  20. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Maybe as I'm close to the Factory I was not asked to pay the entry fee (I did it directly with the Factory, without any dealership) and so the cost in 2016 was 2816 euro including 22% IVA (2300 euro + IVA) for my 308. For the 208 turbo it was 1700 euro + IVA (2074 euro including 22% IVA)

    I don't know how much they ask now.

    ciao
     
  21. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Correct: an average intelligent guy should know that everyone likes different things and enjoys the ownership in different ways. I know of a Pagani Zonda R (five millions car? Not even street legal) that never moved from the living room and its engine was never started. I'm sure that there is anyone here would think "If I were the owner of such a beast I would do a track day every week!" (and I'm among them!)

    So: I cannot see the problem if anyone likes to have a red book done by Ferrari showing your car and describing it. I like it very much: where is the problem?

    ciao
     
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  22. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    The wrong priorities from Ferrari are the problem. But I have to accept, that dealing with paperwork is obviously more profitable than their core business, supplying quality spare parts.
    No way I would see a problem with that Classiche program, if they wouldn't neglect the really important part.

    Best
    Martin
     
  23. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Martin, it looks you are talking about something else. You can do that, of course: but open another thread, please: this one is not about spare parts nor about Ferrari wrong priorities.

    Ciao
     
  24. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    So is this thread exclusively for 'Classiche admirers?
    Seems, that I have a more global or 'across the board' view of things.

    Best
    Martin
     
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  25. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    Not at all. Like on with criticism. Classiche isn’t without its faults. Respectful is the key word.
     
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