Classiche Certified Replacement Block

With an unlimited budget, anything is certainly possible. There's a famous 512M running around that's basically a duplicate chassis, while the original rests in safety (and given that it's now lost most of it's rigidity, it's probably more safe for the driver to run the replacement chassis anyway). There's a 312PB replica floating around that was constructed for the owner of the real car (now sold). And, the list grows.

And, many have and are stripping off bodies and other bits in an effort to preserve them if the unfortunate were to occur. However, sanctioning bodies also want originality. To a degree, of course. You likely won't get a car into the more prestigious events if it's a re-creation, though.

CW

 

There are a number of "Historic Race Cars" at Major events that are total replicas.

 

some thoughts about Classiche, particularly in connection with competition cars.

At least in the 50s, even "new" race cars were not assembled from shelves full of bright shiny new parts. Stampings indicate that the steering box in our car was originally installed in the 375+, 0396AM, that won LeMans in '54 and subsequently crashed in the Carrera Panamericana (killing navigator Robinson).

Like many of the 4-cylinder motors in the 54-55 period, the crankcase originally installed in our was destroyed by a broken con rod in one of its early races. The top end of the motor and carbs in our car, Series II 500 Mondial 0556(0446)MD, came from the remains of the first Series II Mondial, 0512MD (killed della Favera). You can see it in the photo below. This explains why our car, the fourth of eight Series II cars, has DCOA3 carb s/ns #2 and #3. Some tipo 111 and 119 crankcases were repaired - you can see the big welded patches on certain cars to this day - ours was apparently badly damaged enough that it warranted a new crankcase. Ours has a blank boss where the internal motor number would be. What would Classiche do with that?

Another issue that has come to our attention recently is the matter of the re-stamped cars. This is a pretty savvy forum, but for those of you who do not know, Ferrari SpA was known to accept traded-in comp Ferraris, give that serial # to a new Ferrari coming off the line, and give the traded-in car the serial that the new car would have had in the course of production. Our car is one of those re-stamped cars. Francois Picard's 1954 735S, s/n 0446 was traded in for the 1955 s/II 500 Mondial that would have been 0556. The 735S was re-stamped 0556MD and sold, and the new 500 Mondial was stamped 0446MD and given to Picard to take back to France. This way the frenchman would not have to pay the enormous duty on new cars, and the carnet would show the same car coming back into the country. Another person might say that the factory may have been aiding/abetting their client's tax fraud, but not I! An old Forza has an article by Frankl more fully explaining the re-stamp phenomena, if you're interested.

In the Classiche certifications we have seen, Ferrari has chosen to ignore the actual history, and is issuing the certifications on these cars with only the re-stamped number. I understand why Ferrari would not/cannot certify these cars with both numbers the way Ferrari historians have done for decades now, but I believe this shows that Ferrari is inherently conflicted - they cannot cover their legal butts AND objectively police originality at the same time.

I have been researching a narrow band of Ferrari comp cars for over 30 years now, so I would never consider a Classiche certification and our Mondial will never by certified as long as we own it. However, I understand why some people who are not historians and choose not to perform their own research would think it is somehow valuable. But once you have even a whiff of the fact that (1) there have been serious mistakes made in the process, and (2) the "certification" is only as good as the date it was given, I'm not sure why much stock is put in it.

My opinion is that Classiche would have gotten off to a much better start if they had chosen to pay more attention to the production of unobtanium spare parts from the very beginning and not developed the notion of "certifying cars" until much later. This way they could have developed good will in the community instead of first embarking on what a lot of us see as an ill-conceived and poorly executed money grab.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Very Good Post.

 

Concur.

CW

 

Classic Le Mans and the Goodwood revival have COMPLETE replicas participating.

 

I'm not sure i agree with this!

I have seen on more than one occasion a 4 cylinder Ferrari motor throw a rod and literally cut the block in half..... no way these can be repaired.
We have the leftover half form one somewhere! THe rest was scattered around a race circuit.

I will try and find a photo.

 

+10

In the 1980's and 1990's, coin collectors were in the same position
with authenticity and value. Several "bodies" were formed to "fill the
need" of collectors who didn't have the knowledge to interpret what
they saw. ANACS and others would "authenticate" a coin (for a fee)
and "encapsulate" it, with the "grade," so that other viewers / buyers
could "share" what the grader thought of the coin.

The whole point was to preserve or enhance the
investment potential of the coin.

In motorcycling, several companies began making replacement
parts for "collectible" bikes, including BSA Goldstar, Matchless G50,
Norton Manx and Vincent Black Shadow.

Eventually, it was possible to buy, and ride immediately,
a replica that had NO parts made by the factory.

Chatham produced "man made" jewels, like rubies and emeralds,
that are virtually indistinguishable from "real" or "natural" jewels
Chatham adds an "adulterant" that will glow under certain
wavelengths of ultraviolet "black" light, to discourage "counterfeiting."

Certain ROLEX "Prince" watches have been counterfeited
so well that the factory cannot detect the rip off.

Interestingly, these "counterfeits" are accepted in the collector
market, and bring the same prices.......

Bottom line is that one would hope to get what one is paying for.

 

Please do find the photo.

I had a 4-cylinder GP bike that had sawed off
the #1 cylinder, andI later raced is both as
a single-cylinder and as a twin-cylinder.

Set at least 8 Bonneville records in the
appropriate displacement classes.....

Scott

 

I get what you're saying but is it more about documentation than enjoyment?
Is there more joy to be gotten from a car so original that it dare not be driven than one with replacement parts that can be enjoyed as intended?
It's up to the individual owner to make that call but when a Ferrari becomes an object' too precious to use I think that the point has been lost.

 

I'm guessing that was air cooled?

The issue is when you rip through the water jacket how do you repair....

 

Water cooled.

JB Weld is remarkable stuff......

The unit that was converted to 1 cylinder
was assembled with manifolds, exhaust,
carbs and everything to look like a full
four (4) cylinder bike.

People asked: "A 175cc four cylinder
water cooled bike......?"

I said: "I'm just the rider, I don't
know anything about what's inside."

The one we converted to a twin,
we used the blown cases, and left
a bent rod with a broken piston
hanging out in the air.

Folks would say: Wow, I guess your race is over."

We said: "No, we just entered a smaller-engine class..."

Scott

 

Bingo !

We have a winner !

 

Certifying using only the restamped number has a reason; FAR MORE cars were renumbered than we think and in many cases there is no documentation to confirm which serial number the car may have carried originally. Customer requests were only one reason for renumbering, most cars were renumbered to keep factory records straight when cars were being disassembled and reassembled again; see the case of four renumbered 375MM spiders for an example. I find it really peculiar that the case of these four cars is quite well documented, while many other similar cases with a series of renumbering seem to be totally unknown/ignored... I think factory shredded many documents to synchronize their records with what went out of the doors and now only the cars in some cases carry clear traces of what really happened.

So Ferrari is not really choosing to ignore the actual history; they really have no choice. What is not known, cannot be documented.

 

...and right up there is the kernel of the whole "Classiche problem". Very well put.

I've also heard too many stories of the people who get to Classiche the soonest with the blank check, get the certification they're looking for. When the stories all seem to trend the same way, can the truth be far behind?

 

Quote "My opinion is that Classiche would have gotten off to a much better start if they had chosen to pay more attention to the production of unobtanium spare parts from the very beginning and not developed the notion of "certifying cars" until much later. This way they could have developed good will in the community instead of first embarking on what a lot of us see as an ill-conceived and poorly executed money grab."


Hear, hear.

George

 

And perhaps for a small fee made available all their historic records

 

I used to collect pre-WWII MARTIN guitars, when they
were "affordable." (sound familiar).

The MARTIN company is family owned, and has more than
a century of history, with C.F. Martin IV now in charge.

NO ONE was ever authorized to discard any documentation,
so the company has every piece of paper they ever generated.

If you want to know something about D-26, with 1895 serial
number 1029, they can tell you who built it, what woods were
used, what paint was used, where the wood was purchased,
and which tree in the forest gave of itself.

Once the records are gone, the hill beccomes quite steep !

Scott

 

A lot of the records aren't gone.

A lot of people have copies of a lot of the records the Factory destroyed.

 

For Sure, on all points.

My company is proceeding with plans to reproduce the
famous ( Infamous ?) Yamaha TZ750 in small numbers.

This will allow owners of "precious" bikes to track the reproductions,
while the precious item is on display - sort of in "protective custody"
as George Gruen remarked about certain Martin guitars.

With that in mind, we are sticking to making parts that will interchange
with the originals, so that - sort of like Classiche - the
original bikes can be kept running.

Certain items, like transmissions, might require entire sets of 12 gears
and two shafts to be installed as a unit, though.

We are considering two crankcase options: Cast and Billet.

The cast cases look much more original, although we are not trying
to "pass them off." The Billet cases offer better metal,
tighter tolerences, and can be made with running changes,
and "custom" features, like accomodation for increased bore and stroke.

Surprisingly, the cast cases do not offer a price advantage.

I have no doubt that we could build an "original appearing"
engine that would have a 30% - 50% horsepower advantage
over the factory item, and you could not tell from the outside.

Would that be "fair" against a "true" vintage racer ?

Scott

 

If these records were assembled,
we would have a truer history.

 

With the internet, a lot of
the heavy lifting can be abreviated.

I recently sold a 1975 TZ750 on eBay.

The Bike went to a new home with a
correct chassis, but a factory replacement
engine with no serial number ( not unusual).

By chance, a man from Holland saw the ad,
and advised by eMail that he had the original motor,
but with a replacement chassis.

I have put the two folks in touch with
each other, so maybe a complete original
bike will appear............

Scott

 

Here is a good example of "if in doubt, don't throw it out" and create accurate records. Congratulations Mark. tongascrew

 

Do the crank cases and cylinder heads from Ferrari cars of this era have the engine tipo and serial number stamped on them?

 

I would like to know what tipo engine the car in question was born with. For example was it a Tipo 128, 128B, 128C, 128D etc? Although the car has been Classiche Certified as having the correct replacement block I'd like to know if the tipo on the replacement matches that of the original. Has the whole car been Classiche Certified? If so do they check the the cylinder heads (as they are not numbered see link below) and sump are of the correct type as well as the ancillary engine parts such as water pump, starter motor, carbs etc?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381306