Classiche. How essential is it to buyers, etc?

Hi everyone,

I just want to know what are the current going thoughts with respect to classiche certification. I want to know:
A. Do buyers demand this and does it truly put a premium on our cars if a car has a cert.
B. Is it a total waste of time, a cynical process without due integrity.
C. How many owners of say our group of cars go to the trouble of having classiche certification.

 

Alex,

This is a great set of questions.

Looking at it from my point of view being in the trade (so to speak), I think most buyers are affected positively if a car already has it, and they might pay a little bit more against an equal car.

But there are many owners who would not want to bother going through the process or wish to pay what it costs. Its generally accepted that Classiche certification is a stamp of Maranello's approval for a particular car, but it is not the final word about any car's condition, because it cant tell you how much life the clutch has left or when the engine will need to be rebuilt. It simply assures that at the point at which Certification was done, the car was in original specification.

Hope my comments have been helpful.

 

Thanks Joe,
I understand what you say. However if any potential buyer is in any doubt, I am a sure a competent specialist, upon inspection at any given time, would be able to tell you exactly the same. i.e that the car is in original specification. No?

So I am scratching my head on this one. I understand more so the relevance perhaps to say Enzo era cars pre 60 or 70's's as I think there might be more limited specialist knowledge around to determine whether say a 50 or 60 year old car is entirely original spec. However I think with Ferraris under 30 years I am sure there are enough specialists around who would be able to certify whether this is the case or not. That's my impression and understanding at least.

But all this mumbo jumbo about people taking off their exhausts and brakes just to pass the certification and then stick the things back on, just smacks of hypocrisy.

 

Ditto except that IMO there are quite a number of Experts who are able to guide one on the purchase of older cars as well and the fact that many prominent collectors have no interest in Classiche speaks for itself.

 

To me it does not matter at all. I agree with Napolis

Having said that the 288 did Classiche last week. It was in for some work and it was a good opportunity to do it. So many buyers of classic Ferraris these days are not Ferrari experts and they do get some peace of mind from buying a car that has Classiche certification.
So I do think it improves the car's value slightly...

Having said that I am not sure why people go and do Classiche for Enzos... A bit early in my opinion

 

They don't even bother taking them off. They use or take photos from a car that has OE parts.

 

So, coming back to the beginning of the story, what is exactly the aim of such certification for a car let' s say less than 20 years old (an F40 for example or even a 355? only to certify that all parts are genuine? any statement on the status of such different parts (clutch, brakes, gear box,...)? what is the average cost of such certification, just to have an idea?

 

I'm a buyer/collector, and i value it. And I think Classiche Certification will become increasingly valuable in the future ... especially if we can expect reputable restoration shops to diminish in number, in the years to come.

Picture the new Ferrari collector ten years from now. Whom does he/she trust?

Surely, as noted, the Classiche Certification doesn't tell you everything about the condition of the vehicle. But in my view, it's valuable "baseline" ... and i expect its value to increase in the years to come.

 

+ 1

 

If I may relate a personal story, and the value of Classiche to me ...

With the arrival of the new 599 GTO last year, I was searching for a 288 GTO. With lots of help from friends, I was able to locate the one previously owned by Niki Lauda ... it was, at the time, owned in Munich. Mr. Marcel Massini traveled to Munich to authenticate the car, and report on its condition. It became clear that the car was authentic ... and while in very good condition, it was in need of a "gentle refurbishment" (cleaning, detailing, mechanical inspection, etc.).

I live in the states. Absent Classiche, my options would be something along these lines : research & identify a well-respected restoration shop in Europe, visit that shop, and arrange the whole process ... including, shipping to the states (through customs) when complete. Or, ship the vehicle to the US first, and find a reputable shop here in states (arranging all transportation, naturally). Now i'm sure there are well-experienced experts here that would help me with strong recommendations ... but at the end of the day, i'd have to first trust an internet message board (no offense to anyone!), then visit in-person, ask for references, etc.

But Classiche made this WHOLE process a no-brainer, for me! We delivered the vehicle from Munich from to Classiche in Maranello, where it will undergo a "sympathetic refurbishment" (thanks again for that phrase, Joe!). When completed (it may spend some time in the Galleria when done), it will be shipped to the US through "typical" Ferrari channels, with Mr. Risi's kind help in Houston.

I would ALMOST go so far to say, that I might not have pulled the trigger on this deal, were it not for Classiche (yes, I did visit Classiche before I closed the deal, as part of a bigger trip to Maranello to configure a 599 GTO).

The bottom line is that Classiche provides a valuable service to those us who aren't quite expert-level in the business of buying, restoring and collecting these beloved machines

 

Thanks for taking the time to share this story and I'm delighted it worked out. The Classiche department can indeed be a valuable resource. All I can add to this is the picture below! Those EE.304.AK plates you have are valuable.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Agree with you 100%. Taking the considerations noted above also, the Classiche Certificate tells me that if you are going to buy a Ferrari, it helps immensely with authenticity, even though that was when the certificate was issued. Be it 1 or 5 years previous.

 

Sorry, but with all due respect. All you had to do was take the car to any main Ferrari dealer in Europe and they would have certified that your car was genuine. I don't see where the difficulty was?? Why would you have to research a well respected restoration shop/recommendations etc etc??? I am certain any main Ferrari dealer in Europe would have been in a position to reassure you that your 288 was indeed genuine. No ifs ands or buts about it. Why does Classiche give you more reassurance?? You don't need anything else

 

In the past 18 months I have done Classiche on my Daytona, 288GTO and F40. On all cars I have had to go through the hassle of changing something for the process (exhaust, brakes, etc). GTO and F40 were in many ways a waste of time and energy but I sold the F40 and there is no doubt that it would have been harder to sell without Classiche.

Daytona was highly useful. I put the interior back to the exact spec of the build sheet. Classiche was extremely helpful on many small details. This process actually reconnected me with the car.

FWIW there is no doubt that Classiche is much stricter now than a few years ago. I got comments on my Daytona on items that sailed through on other cars years ago.

 

very simple ... i would not trust "any" Ferrari dealer in Europe. I do, however, trust the factory where it was made.

In fact, the head of Ferrari Classiche (as i understand his role), Marco Arrighi, told me in person, while we were examining Lauda's GTO, that he was working in the factory when this car was created There's just no substitute for that, in my view! Also, some "gentle refurbishment" is required ... and once again, i trust the factory where it was made.

Maybe it's a personal preference, but Classiche sealed this deal for me.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience with obtaining 288 GTO (properly).
I am in the process of streamlining my business and other affairs (moving hopefully soon) and plan to actively search for my own GTO this Fall.
Originally thought about getting F40 but the more I learn about the 288 the more I want that car....

 

I did a Classiche on my F40. I doubt many dealers will check a car as thoroughly as a certified Classiche specialist. Here's some things they check with very careful inspection and photographic support. It takes a week or two to complete over 30 pages of entries and photographs.


CHASSIS
- Chassis original?
- Still within the original dimensions and materials?
- Was it repaired or partially rebuilt?
- Is the chassis number in its original position?

MOTOR
- Is the engine the original one?
- Is the engine still complying with the original specifications?
- Was it replaced?
- Using an engine of the original type?
- Is the engine number/s in its original position?
- Are the punchings still the original ones?

GEARBOX/DIFFERENTIAL
- Is the gearbox/differential unit still the original one?
- Is is still complying with the original specifications?
- Was it replaced?
- Are the gearbox/differential numbers in the original position?
- Are the punchings still the original ones?

SUSPENSION/BRAKE SYSTEM/WHEELS
- Is the suspension system the original one?
- Has it been replaced by a different one?
- Does it still comply with the original specifications?

BREMBO DISC TYPE
- Are they still the original type?
- Have then been replaced by a different type?
- Do they still comply with the original specifications?

WHEELS
- Are they still the original (or the same type) wheels?
- Have they been replaced by a different type of wheels?
- Do they still comply with the original specifications?

CAR BODY
- Is the body original for the car?
- Does it comply with the original specs (dimension, materials, etc)?
- Was it repaired?
- Was it rebuilt?

 

Does anybody know how much a classiche report costs? And how long does the certification normally take.

 

In the UK it differs from car to car...I think the 288 was approx £3500...Once the inspection, photographs and report are done it still takes a few months for the Classiche document to come through, even assuming the factory have no further comments. On my 330 it took longer as there were a few comments that needed to be addressed

On another subject it is good to find out who bought the Lauda 288! Well done werewolf!...I looked at buying this car for a friend, it is a terrific GTO and historically important (at least to me). I also like the fact that its history is very clean

 

It's not important to me and I wouldn't pay up for the certification as a buyer. Like Joe said, it's a "snapshot" in time. You could Classiche an F40 in January and change the brakes in June so you still need an inspection. The inspection and representation comments from a guy like Joe are more valuable than a Classiche book that is more than 180 days old, IMO.

 

Thank you George! The previous owner (Mr. Wieth) was a pleasure to deal with It is certainly historically important to me as well !!

I am hoping that it will be available for general viewing at the Galleria in Maranello when Classiche is finished. I will keep the forum posted ...

 

Sorry, but with all due respect you are wrong in your assumption that "any main Ferrari dealer in Europe would have been in a position to reassure you that your 288 was indeed genuine. No ifs ands or buts about it."

Ask me how I know!

There are main Ferrari dealers in Eu that have never even seen a 288 GTO, have never worked on one, and employ young technicians who weren't even born when the 288 GTO was launched 27 years ago! They can probably tell you all about an Enzo, but some of them have no experience whatsoever with 288 GTOs, and haven't a clue what to look for in order to assess them. Going to a specialist with model-specific experience is rule number one in the game of older cars. The 288 GTO is an older car.

Without being redundant because the case has already been made, the factory's Classiche Department gives more reassurance because not only do they have individuals who can correctly assess a 288 GTO, but they have the ability to facilitate the refurbishment of them to the same standard & spec as they were built new. To many people, having the original manufacturer of any collectible item refurbish said item gives an immeasurable peace of mind. Surely, that's not hard to understand. When you refurbish your Rolex, you send it back to Rolex, and it comes back like new.

Classiche's client assistance program is a work in progress, and I can tell you it will have an ever-increasing presence and importance in the future with today's new generation of Ferrari collectors. Especially as the Classiche department continues to make its business the business of restoring the same cars it originally manufactured.

Its easy to be cynical and underestimate the importance of this.

The Classiche report is only a snapshot in time, but I believe they will expand on this to where the car is examined at regular intervals to ascertain its continued good order and factory original spec. All in good time.

 

Really? If that's the case, 0818 is calling your name.....
The local Shell station has more credibility.

 

if the "local Shell station" has more credibility to you than the Ferrari factory, then perhaps another marque is calling your name ...

 

You know, I'd buy this if Ferrari's program was anywhere close to the Porsche certificate. How much does Porsche charge? How much does Ferrari charge? More importantly, I have talked to more than one or two dinosaurs, and truth is, the factory doesn't know squat in many cases.

Bottom line is the car there? Is it what it is supposed to be?

With all due respect to the King of the Toasted Ponies, but who give a crap about the pliers in the tool kit?

Dale