Classiche program problems and veiws. | FerrariChat

Classiche program problems and veiws.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by chaa, Sep 9, 2006.

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  1. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
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    I had put this on the Gereral section yesterday and have not realy had any opinions of the "Classiche" program. In hindsight i should have posted it on this section in the first place becourse maybe you guys dont use general sections:)

    As some may know Ferrari have now jumped on the old/heritage car bandwagon. And have opened a new restoration and authentication service for any ferrari espesialy the older models of collectors editions. Heres the link to the new Maranello work shop. http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm...on-hq-unveiled

    Any ways i was reading in this months classic & Sports car mag, that one of the first custumers that took in his Daytona for an authentication certificate. And it was discoverd that the car was stollen some years later and now it seems the dude has lost his car. And another custumer who was only givern a certificate once certain work was done by the Classiche program.
    I personaly cant see to many of the historical ferrari owners volunteering for there cars to be authenticated due to all the crash and rebuild racers that are out there. Like for example Lord Charles Brocket who him self rebuilt a ferrari racer from part of a chasis with the number stamped on it. Another car was else were with the same number due to the car being crashed and rebuilt during its racing career. Also alot of so called barn finds and racing wreck that have been rebuilt in the greedy 80s may indeed have a double some were in the world. I can personaly see alot of old ferrari racers being discredited and what was once thought of as an historical car may well not be the car they thought it was once "Ferrari Clasiche" does its authentication checks.
    What do you guys think of this, and the Classiche program??
    __________________
     
  2. 330gt

    330gt Formula 3

    Nov 12, 2004
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    I think that the expensive older Ferraris will have to get certified or they won't be worth as much as a similar car that has been certified. Certification is expensive and a PITA, but if I had a choice between two cars, I would pay more for the certified one since I would know that all of the major components were original or had been correctly replaced with certificated parts. I would wonder about why the other car hasn't been certified and if there was some problem with it. Not that I'm in the market for that price range of car :)

    As far as Lord Brockett goes, he was convicted and went to jail for his trangressions. I'm sure that there are a number of cars that won't pass certification w/o major expensive work. Even my lowly PF coupe has a re-stamped block in it. If anybody knows where the 250 128F outside plug block with the internal motor number of 152F is, please let me know.

    FNA's Rossa magazine, issue 25 has a good article on the Classique program.
     
  3. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    From the buyers perspective a certificate from Ferrari would give that buyer confidence they are getting what they are paying for. The idea of replacement parts like blocks being remanufactured is a plus. Years ago many broken old cars were parked bacause they could not be easily fixed.
    For the owner, if he or she has confidence in what they have; then the certificate would merely be a plus when selling at some later date. Sort of like a birth certificate for your car. If the car has an unknown history then it could be like exploratory surgery; you don't know what you will find. Or what can of worms you may open. Ferrari does not have the build sheets for all the cars either...
    horse fan
     
  4. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    I wonder what they will say about cars they renumbered themselves in the old days to avoid import taxes...
     
  5. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    Come on now....you know what they will do...and who they will screw....
     
  6. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    The factory never did that, did they...;-)

    ...or what of the cars they are now certifying after making new parts (blocks, gearboxes, etc.), stamping them as original when the originals are still out there, often in another car. It seems what this is really about is Ferrari attempting to "cash in" on the old cars....the very cars that made their history and those that they have paid very little attention to until the last 10 years. Ferrari's own records are alleged to be somewhat suspect and are less accurate than some of the private historians.

    And what to do with a car has been modified, only to go on to have an illustrious past in this modified condition and remained unaltered since the close of its racing career. Should it go back to "as it left the factory"? Of course not.

    What should 0666 look like to be certified?
    LM's that received Drogo noses?
    Not that he cares but are Piper's cars certifiable? He has owned some since new.
    Should 1040 be changed back to being a 512S?
    Is Ferrari going to jump into settling some of the contentious issues of which car is the right car? ie 0818, some LM's and others.
    312 PB's has serial #'s stamped on each major componant. No car has all of its original parts. The factory race mechanics put them back together as they could in the pits not caring about the serial #. Are they certifiable?
     
  7. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
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    My understanding is that the car will be certified if the car is in its original specification. Parts don't have to the originals fitted to the car as long as they have not been modified from the original specification as fitted to that car when new.

    I think the term is can of worms
     
  8. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    So a car with the correct type gearbox, but with the wrong internal # is OK? I don't think that is the case. Perhaps an upright swap is OK, but not major component.

    If I go to Ferrari with a chassis tag and a boatload of money and ask them to build a car with a new chassis, new block, new gearbox, etc., can it be certified? Granted this is an extreme example.
     
  9. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    have a certificate from Marcel and some of the others here than from Ferrari Classiche as to originality.
     
  10. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
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    I have seen alot of Marcels pictures from through out the ages and read some of his responces and he does seem a very knowledgeable man in the history of ferrari, and has been in some very historical places. And is respected on the Vintage section. What is his background in ferrari? I ask this respectfully becourse i dont know and am interested.
     
  11. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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  12. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Marcel's been involved in tracing the history of vintage Ferraris long before the factory even thought there would be money in it, I'd take Marcel's opinion over the factory's any day of the week

    One of my biggest problems with the Factory Clasiche program has got to be where the factory is getting it's information from........as we all know historicaly Ferrari has had relativley little to do with older cars and as such doesnt really retain any historical knowledge of its cars and how they were constructed and their willingness to modifiy older cars is plainly wrong if your claiming to be an authority of period correct cars
     
  13. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
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    Thanks for that Wax;) A ferrari historian ey, excellent and most respect to him:D
    I would love to read his opinion of the Classiche program.
     
  14. vroomgt

    vroomgt Formula 3

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  15. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    that the atttitude is "Once out the door, we care no more".
     
  16. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    Jun 15, 2006
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    Yes indeedy, non-certified cars will be worth less than certified.

    So at a stroke the factory has just rendered my thoroughly documented car to be worth less than a thinly documented but Classiche-certified car. Thanks guys. Mine and previous owners diligent efforts to maintain history are diminished.

    For those of us living on the other side of the world, the cost and damage risk of transporting our cars is difficult to justify.

    I cannot blame the factory for cashing in on older cars, but this creates yet another discouragement for true early Ferrari enthusiasts, versus the asset-only "collect it but don't use it" people.
     
  17. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Only to those that don't want to do their homework and are only interested in writing a check.

    What would you rather have....a certified car that has had a new block made at the factory, or an uncertified one with the LeMans scrutineering stamps still visable? You cannot manufacture and certify a history, even if you are the factory.

    The one thing that the factory can do through this process is verify that the cars are accurate to the period of manufacture. I have seen older cars with formerly non-adjustable front suspension having adjustment built into them, especially negative camber in a quest for quicker lap times. In my mind the cars should not continue to evolve with more modern technology, but remain accurate to their period, certified or not.
     
  18. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Yet in the blurb they sent out at the launch they mention the modification of some of the first cars being restored!....are Ferrari going to only do period correct work or will they Improve a little as they go......can't imagine them using period correct materials or methods for engine parts
     
  19. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    it seems to me the factory can certify any car with a correct chassis number stamp. then any deviations from the original can be detailed in in a seperate section of the cirtificate. these deviations should include the date the work was done and by whom, the changes made including parts and source/manufacturer of parts, details of all body work, as complete a history of the car as possible....etc.then let the market dictate what the value of the car is. the owner can also get opinions of " experts " to augment the factory certification.. regarding cars in the americas, orient etc the factory might consider designating local "experts" to certify cars as long as the certificate issued is clear who issued it and that it is only a factory authorized doccument. george tongascrew
     
  20. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    In many cases, the factory neither knows nor cares what happend after the car first left the doors of the factory. It's historians who have researched this; not the factory!
     
  21. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2003
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    Hello,

    i just received the October issue of Classic & Sportscar magazin. There's a short article about the 'Ferrari Classiche Program' and with big surprise I read, that one owner, who brought in his Daytona for certification was now told, that his car was stolen years ago. Now the matter is in the hands of the police and the owner has to wait whether he ever gets his car back or not.
    Does anyone of you know any details about this issue ?
    I think, this is one example of pitfalls which are waiting to happen.

    Best Regards from Germany

    Martin
     
  22. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Pragmatically speaking, when buyers want to pay serious money for Classic Ferraris, then they call on Marcel Massini for verification.
    As an investment you'll know that when it comes time to sell, Marcel will probably be called upon by the potential buyer to verify the car.

    As a noted author and historian he's the best qualified to determine the state of the car. The previous posts made a good point, the factory (might/should) have records on when it was produced, but Marcel has the lineage after it changed hands in the real world.

    Seems the Ferrari factory is at a disadvantage here...
     
  23. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2003
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    I think it's a difference, whether we are speaking about the history of a car regarding race history, previous owners and so on. Or the technical authenticy of a car.
    Regarding the latter I'm almost sure, that the factory is NOT in a disadvantage. The most complete set of record, say drawings, specifications, materials used, is in the factory archive.

    Best Regards from Germany

    Martin
     
  24. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    With respect Did you not read this thread mate, what you have just said was why i started this thread last week;) We have been talkin about it.Some times its good to read the thread other than the headlines:D
     
  25. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2003
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    Oh yes, sorry ! I only read the second page of postings and thought the main subject is a completely different one :)

    Best Regards

    Martin
     

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