CLASSICHE RED BOOK QUESTIONS

I have it from a reliable source that this is in fact true.

 

Steve: Your friend is 100% correct in his statement.

 

I can only speak from my own experience and that was probably 15 years ago when I had my 330GTC Red Booked. It was done by my friend Al Roberts at Ferrari Ft. Lauderdale. Al had the car for no more than a week. Granted, he has serviced the car before so he wasn’t doing it “cold” and his encyclopedic knowledge of these cars probsbky expedited the process. Nothing was disassembled. That’s absurd. 2-3 months is also ridiculous. Maybe they mean it would take that long to get the certification approved and the book issued. Al’s report sailed through to approval without a problem.

 

Reading your questions and your answers tells to me that the "Certification", as i supposed before, is just smokescreen in the eyes of the next and deluded buyer.
What a manufacturer who sold his archive could certify without an original documentation?
Knowing that there are few real experts and too many boasters out there, interested to your wallet only, i'ld prefer to hear what an automotive historian has to say before to open the bonnet.

 

Dyke: Agreed.

 

I agree, but would add it being nothing more or less.

Thank you for offering examples, but may I ask couple of follow up questions, like how many of these requests lead to a sale for full asking price or close enough offer + certification fees ?
How long had each example lingered on the "market" unsold prior to requests for certifications ?
Which model vintage Ferraris were they ?
Did any or all buyers have previous (extensive ?) ownership or purchase experience with vintage cars/Ferraris in general or were they first-time buyers relatively new into all this ?

A fair question, but unfortunately almost impossible to provide a serious answer to without sounding childish/silly since I’m not currently in a position to buy any vintage Ferrari model.
In my mind, an answer would be equal to someone with total net worth of, let’s say, $5M or less telling us which 250 GTO or Gulfstream they would buy.

OTOH, attempting to address your question somewhat seriously, if you will, in the past 45+ years I have bought & owned over 100 vintage cars of various makes & models, although majority are or have been within five figure price/value range.
For some I’ve even paid well above (twice ?) the “perceived market value”, but have never bought/owned any based on what someone else thinks of it or its worth.
Perhaps I’m an outlier, but like all cars (& anything else) I’ve bought & own(ed), I would just personally inspect both given examples and choose the one I would deem more to my liking.
Having a “Red Book”, folder full of appraisals/certificates/testimonials, display case or a trunk full of concours awards, etc or even variance in their asking prices wouldn’t have any serious effect on my decision making.

 

Steve, it's worthwhile for resale and it's better if the certification is fresh. But on the flip side, the process takes several months. BTW, Ferrari of Newport Beach would send a certain representative to you and he would take roughly a day and a half to go over the car. Then, he would forward his reviewed material to the factory and, even if there were no sticky wicks, it would be no less than several months before you got your book. But, I do not know if that individual is still with them.

 

@TTR "....Having a “Red Book”, folder full of appraisals/certificates/testimonials, display case or a trunk full of concours awards, etc or even variance in their asking prices wouldn’t have any serious effect on my decision making....."

That's the point. The certification book is in my opinion a plus for the circus of the concourses to which many newbuyers with the pockets full of money and no real knowledge of the car history take part. These people are totally dazzled by the status their cars allow them to live (momentarily). Also they have a fake knowledge of a car based on the quantity of the concours awards only. I personally know many Italian cars (Alfa Romeo and Lancia) awarded with a "Best in show" which needed a full restoration again, but the panel of judges didn't notice it. So, what these awards worth in a real world? I leave the answer to you.....

 

Talking about market values, one thing I am certain is a non-matching engine will crush the value of any vintage V12 in today's market. A red book is ONE WAY to verify the car is matching numbers. It is amazing to me how there are still so many buyers out there that don't understand the difference between the engine pad stamping that bears the chassis number versus the actual internal number. I understand there are copies of old build sheets floating around between various sources that we all know, not to mention the Massini letter will often have the internal number listed, but if you are unable to track down the internal number thru these various sources then the only thing left is to do the certification! Or you can rely on seeing that the chassis number is stamped on the engine pad and then "take your chances" that the internal number matches factory records -- if you are a gambler! Personally I have seen too many re-stamped engine pads to take my chances!

 

The build sheet will have the internal engine number on it as well as the regular engine number, gearbox/transaxle number and differential number. So if you have a copy of it, you don't need the red book.

 

but even if the stamping on the housings are correct you not know about the internals

 

$15K sounds steep. But I don't understand what you could do. Could you please explain? Thanks

 

That individual is a very old friend and retired.

 

The price is in 2 parts. 1 to Ferrari. They have a price schedule. The 2nd is to the dealer. Some of the dealer fees are outrageously high. In this case he found a more agreeable price. Although when I first read his post I misunderstood and though he was talking about his 308. The Ferrari fee is higher for higher value cars. A Daytona is considerably more than a 308.

 

Very wise decision. You will sleep better at night.

 

Not to mention the money that gets saved & instead of unsubstantiated marketing BS, it will provide clearly measurable ROI if/when selling the car(s).

 

Hey Steve, I fully support your decision. It has been several years since I sold my car and at the time there was no way I was going to undergo a Red Book process. After 58 years of custodianship and historical research I felt that I knew my original car better than anyone left at the factory and David Carte fully agreed with me. Today I would not change my decision, and I do not think the lack of a Red Book made any difference in the sale price.

Best regards,

Robert

 

Not trying to sway one way or the other but a couple of things to think about....

I personally think the Red Book is hokey unless you are trying to right a car with issues or planning to sell a car. I am biased. I have been in the silly Ferrari world too long. I know this, but should be too. I am not saying you should be, but....

This isn’t meant as a criticism or throwing rocks, in fact, the opposite. FOH has been a bit of a roller coaster for the last months/years. You can find those comments elsewhere, but ownership changes/etc have things a bit out of the norm. This could work to your advantage, in a way, so not a negative. I am not saying this should be an endorsement.

Ferrari (RACE) now ties New Car allocations to vintage car ideas, read that as Red Book/Classiche/Restoration (that Classiche is a part of... go figure). This means the dealership needs old cars to get new cars. This can also work to your advantage, AND this card should be played accordingly. Although Ferrari of Houston, may seem to be the most logical place to go through this process, they ARE NOT your only option. Quite a few dealers would be happy to do a certification and get a slightly better new car allocation.