360 - Cluster of problems, maybe electrical | FerrariChat

360 Cluster of problems, maybe electrical

Discussion in '360/430' started by mb5, Sep 1, 2023.

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  1. mb5

    mb5 Karting

    Nov 11, 2017
    132
    Los Angeles
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    Matt
    #1 mb5, Sep 1, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
    Seeking some advice on the right sequence of steps to take to diagnose and resolve some problems that popped up on my 2003 360 F1 transmission, ideally spending the minimal amount of money along the way.

    Before this, I’ve never had any CELs or other issues in the 3 years I’ve owned the car. And it stays on a battery tender when not in use.

    Here’s a chronology of little things that happened last week. Before this I hadn’t driven it in about a month.

    1. Sat 8/26 ran rough while warming up at idle. Was oscillating between about 500 and 1500rpm. I started my drive and that behavior stopped. Drove (with stops) 200 miles to my road trip destination, including some spirited driving.

    2. During that drive, there were a few times that my OEM stereo changed from playing music from my phone (via Bluetooth into an adapter that’s plugged into the CD changer port) to suddenly the FM tuner. Electrical gremlin?

    3. Mon 8/28 drove 150+ miles back toward home. No issues, though will note that this is probably the hottest I’ve ever gotten the car, between the length of the trip, the sustained modestly spirited speeds (under 100, nothing crazy), and it being 90 degrees F outside.

    Made a pit stop. On start up, I couldn’t reverse, so shut the car back off. I looked up threads here on FChat and used the trick of shifting into R from 1st instead of neutral. Was on my way again.

    4. Less than 10 miles later, I was sitting in traffic and the low oil pressure light went on. I started pulling over to get to a safe place where I could shut the car off, but the light went off before then. I pulled the car over anyway and shut it off for a bit (to cool I guess? that was a scary light to see). Turned it back on. No light. Drove home. I continued to watch the gauge and it seemed to vary between 35 and 70 PSI depending mostly on whether I was idling or driving at freeway speeds.

    5. That same evening, after several hours of being turned off, sitting in the driveway, I started her up to back into the garage. Didn’t run the engine for more than a minute while doing so. Closed the garage door. About 15min later my garage’s carbon monoxide sensor triggered. I opened the garage door to air things out. Ridiculously, my monitoring service said they had to send out the fire department. They walked around my garage w their CO sensor for a bit, made sure we were okay, and gave the all clear.

    6. Tue 8/29 I started her up to head to the office. Nothing unusual. About 2-3mi down the road I got a CEL so decided to turn around. Finally had some time yesterday to pull the code and got a P2177 “System too lean off idle Bank 1”.

    Any insights or advice would be much appreciated.

    A single underlying cause vs a coincidence of a few different things failing?

    Probably safe to drive to the shop, or get it towed? Should I erase the code and see if it comes back or the car otherwise complains?

    I have some time/energy/ability to inspect simple things myself, but not anything that’s too involved.

    If I take it to my shop, other than laying out the above, what should I ask them to inspect or service?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    May 25, 2019
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    Might be time for a new battery.
     
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  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    7,067
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    As stated above start with simple battery check

    What is voltage using multimeter or cigarette lighter reader

    Voltage after standing for 12 hours without charging
    Voltage running
    Voltage while cranking

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  4. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula 3

    Jun 27, 2017
    1,435
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Another vote for checking the battery. Do a load test.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  5. imahorse

    imahorse F1 Rookie
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    LorenzoR and flash32 like this.
  6. mb5

    mb5 Karting

    Nov 11, 2017
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    Matt
    Fwiw the battery is only 18mo old. But no matter, will check those voltages and get back here.

    Maybe points to the alternator, if that’s what’s failing to keep the battery where it needs to be after a whopping 2.5 days away from a tender.
     
  7. mb5

    mb5 Karting

    Nov 11, 2017
    132
    Los Angeles
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    Matt
    Took a bunch of measurements. All with a multimeter connected directly to the battery.

    On tender 9/2 8pm 13.37
    Off tender 9/2 8:01pm 13.26
    9/3 9am 12.64
    9/4 9am 12.49
    Ignition turned to on 9/4 9am 12.2
    Cranking 11.x (high 11s)
    Running 14.4
    Driving 14.3
    After 5min 14.2
    After 10min 13.8
    After turning ignition off 13.3

    Car ran normally the entire time. AC turned on. CEL still on. No other indicators of anything unusual.
     
  8. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Battery and alternator look good
    .did you clear code before doing test ?

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
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    Brian Crall
    On your first post #1. It ran rough after starting and you still drove it ? Never do that with any car.

    On 360 electronics are glitchy and that is a common issue. If it ever starts and runs rough, shut it down and restart. 90% of the time it will restart and run properly. Its quite common since they were new and often seems connected to a less than perfect battery.

    To be honest the logic of starting a car, recognizing its running incorrectly and driving off anyway is something I really fail to understand.
     
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  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Testing an alternator without a load test is no test at all. 360 alternators are fragile electronically and we have had so many issues they get tested every service. My last alternator repair shop paid for his retirement rebuilding them.
     
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  11. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    I assumed the AC on and charging at 14.4 was ok .. I guess he can turn lights on and high beams

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  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    If you are not putting a 150 amp load and reading the voltage you are not testing it.

    They are hand grenades. High failure rate.
     
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  13. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    I'm curious. When would a Ferrari 360 ever put a 150 amp load on the alternator? Putting an excessive load on an already fragile part seems fraught with danger.
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Excessive???? Thats its rating and an industry standard test. The test isn't what kills them. Its how we discover they are already bad.

    Do you avoid redline? The factory sure didn't when they dyno'd the motor.
     
  15. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    Well, pulling 150 amps on a device that would never reach that in any operation mode seems a bit extreme to me. It could be that you're seeing a high failure rate because you're breaking them with the test. Just because it's an industry standard doesn't mean it should be applied to a 20 year old fragile device on a hand made car. I think a little caution would be in order, and perhaps, go with 2/3rds of that just to keep from doing any damage.

    The rule for an auto mechanic should be the same as a doctor: First, do no harm.
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    You are an idiot.
     
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  17. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Would cranking voltage be a reasonable replacement for a load test? However I don’t know what “normal” would be.

    Most auto parts stores will do a load test for free. IMHO Don’t waste money on a load tester unless you can justify it with repeated need.

    Also those CD adapter jobbers are known to be janky
     
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  18. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    Thank you for proving my point.

    "Force it, if it breaks, it needed replacing anyway" - Silly method of operation.
     
  19. mb5

    mb5 Karting

    Nov 11, 2017
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    Los Angeles
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    Matt
    To Rifledriver’s comment re its running rough and my driving it anyway, I guess I’ll add the detail that it sounded fine…what I called its running rough was that it was failing to keep the revs at 1000ish equilibrium. It would drop down to 500 like it’s stalling, sputter for a moment, bounce up to 1500, then repeat. My thought process was that by starting to drive I would get it out of that oscillation. Notwithstanding, I get it. Next time I’ll turn the car off, restart it, and see if that resolves it.

    I did not yet erase the CEL. Is the preferred way to do that with an OBD tool, or by turning off the battery in the frunk?

    After that, seems like I should just go ahead and drive it normally, until some symptom reappears?
     
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  20. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    I would make nite of Cels and clear with tool..if they come back please try to resolve as soon you can

    A bad running engine is.nevwr good for the longevity of the engine ..too lean too rich can cause other bigger issues

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  21. mb5

    mb5 Karting

    Nov 11, 2017
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    Started her up, connected OBD2, cleared the P2177, went for a drive. Filled the gas tank 10min in, and drove for another 20min, putting her through the paces. No issues, no lights, no unusual behaviors.

    Shrug, guess I’ll just treat it as a fluke for now, until any symptoms reoccur, or I do another 3-day road trip.
     
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  22. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Just curious where everyone is getting their codes from. My 360 tables only go up to 1675.

    Did the updated software come with new codes or do I have incomplete tables?
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Dominik B.

    Dominik B. Karting

    Mar 5, 2017
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    Just curious if you guys get mixed results from trickle-charging (on a tender, as you call it)?
     
  24. mb5

    mb5 Karting

    Nov 11, 2017
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    Matt
    What do you mean by mixed results?
     
  25. Dominik B.

    Dominik B. Karting

    Mar 5, 2017
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    Dominik B
    As in battery life deteriorating prematurely.
     

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