Coaching Fees

Keith,

You have the proper equipment (data, video and radios) to get the most out of coaching services. That said, "coaching" is a very common and hackneyed buzzword these days.

It really depends on what level you're looking for. You will find prices and efficacy all over the map. I really recommend you speak at length to the people you hire beforehand and get a good feel for how you will be able to relate to each other. If your first hire doesn't work out, there are plenty of other options. The most successful drivers tend to form pretty loyal and long-lasting relationships with coaches who are most experienced and dedicated to coaching, not racing themselves.

There are numerous non-racing drivers education "volunteer" instructors who ask a few hundred dollars a day to tag along and help. Heck, some of them are free! <grin>

There are successful NASA and SCCA club racers and/or prep shop owners offsetting their own racing expenses. They generally charge $350-$500/day or they roll the charge into their shop's prep/transport and support charges. Tom Fowler at OPM or Stu Brumer at BSI are two of the best in SM.

There are many semi-pro and professional sports car drivers supplementing their income on "off" weekends at $500-$1000/day. Tom Long, Seth Thomas, Jason Hart and Mike Skeen are four very good choices.

There are about two dozen professional coaches across the US who derive their primary and majority income from being true, dedicated driver coaches. They not only supply instruction, but offer insightful, experienced data and video analysis and even supplementary engineering support, but the common thread is that they are solely focused on being dedicated resources for their clients, period. You should expect to pay at least $1500/day and up, plus expenses.

Sliderule Motorsports principal Mike Zimicki, Bertil Roos School principal Dennis Macchio, Skip Barber fixtures Peter Argetsinger and Bruce MacInnes, Daytona 24 and Sebring 12 Hour winner Jim Pace and myself are in that group.

You pay your money and you take your choice! Good luck with your racing this year.

 

Thats great info Peter. Thanks.

 

Yes, very informative Peter. You answered my questions before I even asked. That being said, at what point in a driver's path/career should they seek out professional coaching.

I'm currently instructing at trackdays, and have done a bunch of time trials, and set one track record for my class, have taken the BMWCCA race school, but have yet to try my hand at wheel to wheel racing. I'm looking to change that this season hopefully. I have no aspirations of becoming the next formula 1 champion. I realisticaly see myself competing at the amature level in FCRA, BMWCCA, NASA, and/or SCCA over the next several years. If an opportunity came up to drive in Grand Am or other similar series I would certainly jump at the chance, but I'm not expecting it.

So at what point along my path would it be most beneficial to seek pro coaching? Should I jump in and get a few races under my belt first then get a coach, or should I ge a coach right from the start to nip any bad habbits in the bud, or....?

Thanks in advance!

 

No one answer, I'm afraid. For most, it's an economic decision.

At what point do drivers believe that external evaluation, identification of areas for improvement, construction of very specific (and more broad) strategies to plan improvement and measurement of that improvement (if successful) justify the additional expense to what is already an expensive undertaking, at any level?

When done right, it's always been top-down. F1 drivers, CART/IRL, NASCAR, FIA GT and top level sports car drivers have been using trained, experienced and vetted coaches for decades.

Dr. Jacques Dallaire writing in 1983 "Scientific Principles of Training and Conditioning" which yielded a relationship working with Ayrton Senna, Sliderule Motorsports principal Mike Zimicki surrounding his clients (Danica Patrick and Graham Rahal, for example) in a "cocoon" of total approach encompassed in NinTai (perseverance), coach Rob Wilson vetting Bruno Senna for Frank Williams.

The studied, serious and outcomes-based approach practiced by a true, trained and experienced professional ALWAYS helps, for a driver at ANY level.

My experience has been to take the professional approaches most valid to the INDIVIDUAL client and apply them to the area identified as the greatest opportunity for improvement.

Whether working with a first-time track n00b to a former F1 World Champion, the approach should be the same with only the level of intensity and the number of "tools from the toolbox" used that varies.

Obviously, drivers only interested in track days take a different approach than even base-level club racing drivers. For them, the learning curve is SO steep, even unpracticed, untrained but more experienced instructors can help a great deal.

Most all amateur competition drivers (club level including SCCA, NASA, PCA, FCRA and up to Grand Am CTSCC and Patron Cup) that are open to collaboration with a bona fide professional coach can improve their performance dramatically (some immediately and others over time) by retaining a coach. Much of the benefit is to CLARIFY the tremendous amount of information (and a great deal of MISinformation) and discard approaches that perpetuate mistakes and inhibit performance improvement. This is where data is so valuable.

I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift. You can derive as much benefit as you are open to from the best guys. From bootstrapping your "world view" to specifics about "which blade of grass to turn in at" (yes, I've been accused repeatedly of that one <grin>), the best coaches provide information and access to correct, outcomes-based methodologies and experience that will save tremendous amounts of time and money. Period.

Far better than getting into a car with an instructor in the passenger seat, one who stays mum during the session and gets out after saying "you're pretty good, not a lot I can help you with."

There is ALWAYS room for improvement...

 

Couldn't have said it better than Peter just described it but I believe this is the best summary of when you are ready for a ProCoach. It is up to you and how quickly you want to collect as many tools as you can for your racing career.

 

Prices given were in the ballpark. I started working with a pro driver and he gets $1,350 day + expenses.

 

I raced Spec Miata for a few seasons at VIR with a NC based team. If you were here I would do it for lunch and a beer afterwards.....good luck with this.....the car is really fun to drive.... remember momentum.....not a HP monster but a well tuned car is fast at VIR.

 

I may be a bit biased here, but I'd like to highlight Peter's coaching a bit. Last weekend I visited VIR and watched Peter and his team work with a "client". Before saying anything else, and to keep everything fully disclosed, I'm going to have Peter work with me at an VIR Ferrari club event in March.

Peter and his mechanic worked diligently to continually setup and improve the handling of the car until it perfectly matched the driver's personal tendencies and skill. There were reams of real time data collected to make these adjustments including all manner of data acquisition, video cameras, real time plots of track position, as well as readings for all controls.

Both the client and Peter allowed me to "kick around" as they were working, and the atmosphere was relaxed, but very focused. I tried to not get in the way, but everyone was anxious for me to begin my education and were generous with their time and knowledge.

To me the mark of a quality coach is someone who can get the most out of both the car and the driver, but does so in a manner that is repeatable and consistent. Peter did just that. Over the course of the day I noticed that each practice session resulted in faster and faster lap times, but also with more control and knowledge ("So I remember you telling me that my hands were too close together coming out of the turn, making my steering less precise. I was working on that and the computer readings confirm that I'm getting better.").

There were lots of comments about specific improvements in technique. Add to that the data acquisition showing that the slip angle of the car was more efficient after several small suspension adjustments, tire pressure changes and other "fine tuning".

By the end of the day the client had times that would place him on the pole if this were an actual race. Please keep in mind, neither Peter or the client were highlighting this improvement - I noticed it and when I spoke with Peter he confirmed that the improvement was both real and verified by all the data.

That to me is a true Pro Coach - and Peter's "handle" is aptly chosen. By the way, watching the car on the track and then being able to correlate what I saw with the data acquisition overlay was very helpful for a novice like me.

Thanks Peter for being so gracious, and I hope that my comments have some useful perspective for any novice driver considering coaching.

One final comment - Peter is also an expert mechanic (in an earlier time he rebuilt my Alfa spider, professionally and under budget) and having that skill I believe truly helps his coaching clients. He knows what to do to get a car to respond and quickly and efficiently focuses on doing the correct thing to make the driver get the most out of a particular car.

 

Keith, it was delightful talking to you this morning and I can confirm that due to your well thought out plan and the quality and experience of the coach that you've selected, you will turbocharge your progress and do it without the need for later duplication. Good luck!

Len, you are VERY kind.

I can't WAIT to begin our work together to advance your skills, knowledge and understanding.

Most importantly, working together, we'll insure your safety and enhance your FUN in this great sport! Thank you!

 

Excellent thread and enlightened OP, nice!

One thing that continually fascinates me is the phenomena of the racer justifying $10,000 cylinder heads that yield 25 extra HP and a 0.2 second gain in lap time vs. $1,000 spent on a coach yielding a 2 second repeatable improvement in lap times.

There are two things that a man will never say he does poorly and one of them is drive...

Best,
Rob

ps, I also offer coaching/ data analysis services and have about a dozen friends who do so also.

 

In regards to when one should start coaching, I think it's never too early.
I'd say the later one starts, the more difficult it is to "unlearn" bad habits, e.g. Early apexing. Similar to golf, it is extremely difficult for instructors to get rid of bad habits in students that have been playing the wrong way for years.

I paid $500 a day for all day coaching split amongst 3 other drivers. Very well worth it.
I will also start my son in karting with instruction now that he is 5 (lots of F1 drivers started with karting )

 

Thanks for the nod Peter, keep up the good work. J

www.jasonhartracing.com

 

And my experience is that most folks that decide not to get coaching, although they desperately need it, do so because they make an incorrect economic decision. They see coaching as a cost.

But it's not. It's an investment.

Even on a pure dollars and cents level, it'll cost you more in track time to learn on your own (if you even can -- sometimes you just need a different perspective) than with professional coaching.

First step, I'd go to a driving school if you haven't already. I don't mean SCCA school, I mean a real school: skip barber is probably the best.

 

I think learning a driving can be call as an investment. If you are getting a professional coaching from a professional driving school then it will be nice to learn from them. It helps to understand the basic traffic rules and other traffic regulations. I think when you start driving it need to learn a driving from a professional coach to get more driving knowledge.

 

True. Why most clients hire me is to get tailored, individual optimization and further, higher level (think graduate school ) instruction.

The personalized, individual and dedicated approach shortens the learning curve and improves performance for most much more quickly, that's all.

 

Racing is funny. If I were young and serious, and had the money, I'd have a nutritionist, physio, and of course a driving coach. Too many hobbyists don't respect the fact that racing is a sport, and are frustrated by their results. The frustrated guys are usually the ones sitting around club events whining about cheating, or wanting to throw more $$$ at their equipment. Racing, at the front, in a contested series, is really hard. This should be obvious, but it's not.

 

Unlike a hot motor or a set of shocks, the best thing about the improved performance you gain from a coach, is that you get to take it with you into EVERY car you drive!

 

Ed, great to see you here! You get to take it to every track you drive, too!

 

This is a great thread - Peter is spot on!

 

Peter's wisdom is unparalleled.

 

Fun to hear from Ed, Marc and Karl.

All (Marc, especially) are great resources for smart drivers to avail themselves...

 

Peter,

I am looking for something that will really sharpen and improve my lap times while at the same time accelerate my driving ability. It really never ends I guess but, at some point I will reach a hurdle and I need to know if it's me or the car!

I have been doing DE's for 2.5 years most of them near by tracks in the Houston, TX area and just recently COTA in Austin, TX. Sorry we couldn't me up. I'm sure you were busy with PCA Racers.

PS. Are the Porsche or Ferrari Driving Schools really worth the effort & cost? Who does one refer to (or what tools does one use) when looking to develop beyond ones ability?

Ciao,

Stanislaus R.R.