Cold start stumbling, corrects in about 20 seconds | FerrariChat

Cold start stumbling, corrects in about 20 seconds

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by moysiuan, Sep 23, 2018.

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  1. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    My 3.2 is experiencing a cold start problem, the car will start with a bit of cranking, will run but like running on few cylinders, billows smoke like its way rich, in about 20 seconds it clears and the cars runs perfectly. Hot starts not a problem.

    My Swiss model is the Bosch KE3 injection, similar to the Testarossa's.

    Would this be caused by a sticking AAV? Can this be removed from the coolant tank without draining the coolant?

    Other thoughts? The fact it is only at start after the car has been at rest for some hours, and is of such short duration has me a bit stumped. Also just came out of the blue. Inspecting things to look for vacuum lines, other obvious things, but since car runs so well after the initial stumble most things I can think of would cause the problem post cold start.
     
  2. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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    I highly doubt that it is the auxiliary valve. Our cars do not really need it. Actually mine is closed off and I know Bellbloke's one too.

    What color is the smoke? Does it smell like petrol?
    If you think you get to much fuel. There is a cold injector on the airhouse (blue connector) on top of the intake manifolds. I would start with disconnecting this one just to see if it gives a better start. This way extra fuel is not injected during a cold start. If it start better then you at least know it is getting too much fuel. It is merely a test and not the resolution.

    There are some troubleshoot steps here. It will be the same with your CH model. All K Jetronic have the same principles.

    https://www.scribd.com/document/49652595/Problems-With-K-Jetronic-System
    http://www.type17.ch/downloads/Injection/Bosch%20-%20K-Jet%20-%20Workshop%20Manual.pdf

    Personally I think you would have a vacuum problem.
     
  3. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Thank you, will read through the links, I don't believe the KE3 injection system has the cold injector though.
     
  4. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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  5. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    An easy way to test the AAV is to remove the rear hose. Then you can put a small screwdriver inside the AAV to see if the plate is working. If it's cold, there should be an opening you can put the screwdriver through, and move the plate against the spring tension. When the motor is warm, the plate should fully close off the opening.

    A vacuum leak probably would not go away when warmed up. Sounds more like your spark plugs are fouled. You can clean them with a torch, or just replace them. Also could be your injectors getting clogged. There are small filter screens inside the fuel injectors that will clog when the fuel dries out of them. It helps if you start the car every day, so the fuel never dries out. Also run a fuel injector cleaner like Techron.
     
  6. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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  7. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Yes, your right I do have the cold injector! It's right on the back of the plennum, can't really see it, the diagrams and US models have it sticking more out of the side or towards the side. From many threads, this is probably the issue. I thought I was special and did not have this troublesome part. Will check AAV as well just to understanding it better. Can it be unbolted from the coolant tank with the coolant in, looks like it could be?
     
  8. jkstevens2

    jkstevens2 Formula Junior

    Aug 25, 2015
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    Where is the air admit valve (AAV)you are speaking of. I am having a similar problem.........hard to start cold and lots of gas smell......I am thinking the cold injector is the problem. Rough idle and little power at lower rpms. Sound is slightly off.
     
  9. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    AAV is the device under the coolant expansion tank. Proper operation is to allow more air into the engine (which also allows more fuel) at start up, so you have a higher idle speed. Idle speed should gradually reduce automatically as the motor warms up. This is the plate inside the AAV closing. Failure modes are usually stuck open, or stuck closed. A shot of WD-40 will usually free up the plate.

    Your problem sounds like you have the metering slits in the FD plunger clogged. This is from sitting and letting the fuel dry out and/or old fuel. Fuel should not be more than 6 months old. You can take the plunger out and clean it, or start running a fuel system cleaner like Techron.
     
  10. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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    Yup, you can, but like spicedriver said it's open during cold start. You can disconnect the two hoses from the AAV and tape them together. This way you do not have to unbolt the AAV.
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
    Yes, the AAV is just in physical contact with the outside of the coolant expansion tank (no wetted surfaces).

    Approx. for how many seconds do you have to crank the starter motor before it fires up when cold? Like the suggestion to try unplugging the cold start injector as a simple diagnostic first step to see if it changes anything (in fact, to simulate how the cold start injector should work you could crank it for a few seconds, unplug the cold start injector, and then try cranking a bit more). You posted that "the car will start with a bit of cranking", but the thermo-time switch should only allow the cold start injector to squirt fuel for a couple~few seconds (even if you crank the starter for a longer time). A faulty thermo-time switch stuck in the closed condition could cause too much fuel to be squirted -- just an initial thought...
     
  12. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    The car woud start immediately afer being in my garage overnight, but then immediately act like some cylinders not firing, gas smelling smoke at the exhaust, can rev but still not clear, then after 2o seconds its reverts to the perfect state. Almost like the car's computer figured out what was going on and then took over. After parking for an evening, and the night was getting much colder than ever before, the car needed cranking, say 5 seconds, then acted as per noted, but I did wonder at that time whether it would in fact start. Because getting colder seems to correlate making things worse, my thinking was my AAV might be sticking closed.
     
  13. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Checked my aav by putting a light through the hole*, at cold it is only about 1/4 open, should it not be fully open on cold start up?

    *used s small led flashlight on a bendable gooseneck, stuck it in one port and held a piece of white paper on the other side, seeing a crescent moon shaped, I presume the AAV must have a disk that slides back and forth.
     
  14. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Here is a picture of it cold...would it not be open for high initial idle, and then close down as things warm up reducing the idle? If that is so, then mine is stuck mostly closed (it moves, so I guess the bimetal thing inside is not doing its job). That would explain choking the car and being too rich for cold start?

    I ask because some threads say its open when cold, others say closed (and open when warm), maybe different on qv verses 3.2?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    Should be open when cold. Closed completely when warm.

    What is the ambient temperature ? When is the last time the motor ran ?

    Post 5. Put a small screwdriver through the opening and try and move the plate (up in the pic) against the spring tension. If the plate moves freely, the unit is probably okay. If stuck, spray some WD-40 on the plate. If you want to see if it opens completely, put it in the refrigerator.
     
  16. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    The car had sat for two days. About 70 degrees ambient. Opened maybe a tad when putting in freezer but still at least 2/3 closed. Heated up in a pan, did not close beyond the picture noted. The plate moves freely with a screwdriver, springs back to resting position without binding. Resistance of the heater is about 35 ohms.

    I tried to start the car with the unit off and disconnected, taped the hoses together, it would not fire up at all. Should car not run with an AAV removed, or does the computer sense a missing a signal and not start the car?
     
  17. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    You can try and jump 12V across the heating element. If it doesn't close all the way, it's faulty. Try some WD-40 anyway.

    Motor should run without the AAV. If the hoses are taped together, should be a high idle. If the hoses are taped off, should be a normal idle. If the hoses are left open, there will be a really bad vacuum leak, and motor will run rough.

    You could probably find a used AAV on ebay. These were used in a lot of different cars.

    Still, I think your problem is ignition related. Ignition or fuel. Run the car from cold for the 20 seconds or so, then turn it off. Touch the exhaust pipes close to the head, or the little test pipes if you have those. They all should be warm. If any are cold, those cylinders are not firing. First guess would be faulty plugs, or plug wires. Or fuel clog somewhere.
     
  18. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Thank you Spice, will do the further tests, I suspect you are on the right track re: ignition. Will have to check things more thoroughly. Might not get to this for a few days, but will report back if I can solve for this.
     
  19. jkstevens2

    jkstevens2 Formula Junior

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    metering slits in FD........what is a FD? Frequency device? same as Frequency valve?
     
  20. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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  21. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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    Check all 8 extenders connecter to your sparkplugs. they are know for having small burn pinholes if one goes through the plastic it spark will jump from time to time into the wrong direction. There will cause the engine to run not on every cylinder.

    You can use insulation tape for a quick fix to wrap it around the extender.
     
  22. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    Just a note on the AAV - I check my 3.2 cold (80 degrees F ambient), and the opening is about the same size as in the pic posted above. After 10 minutes of running checked again and it's fully closed.
     
  23. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    So here is the update. I thought I would change out the spark plugs, they looked ok, a bit of sign of running rich, and the gap was a bit wider, but nothing serious. After redoing the plugs, the car started and ran well. I still had the aav off, and had joined the two pipes, so the car was revving at 3,000 rpm at idle. Even with the air screw on the fuel distributor tightened all the way in would not lower it much. Don't know how some guys run the car without the aav, but it does appear to me that the aav being fully open at cold would not be the correct spec. I wd 40'ed the aav, and put it back in, cleaned the contacts with deoxit, and then started the car. It started perfectly, the idle was at about 1,600 and then settled to 1,000rpm, so I guess the aav does not have to move much to aid in the cold starting.

    So it looks like changing plugs solved for things. Probably could have just gapped the plugs a bit tighter, the DR8EA conventional NGK plugs are gapped .028, the factory plug spec is .024 to .028 so perhaps these plugs should be gapped more towards the lower end? May as well turn this into a spark plug thread, anyone have good experience with the fancier platinum or iridium plugs? Or run a slightly hotter conventional plug, not sure what the NGK hotter plug would be?
     
  24. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    Glad that she's running again.

    I believe the guys who remove their AAV block off the hose, so the idle is always low at start-up. This is one of those times where I think the engineers who came up with this stuff are smarter than me, and mine gets left in place.

    Just swapped from Champion to NGK not too long ago. Mine came from the factory @ .024. There was a posting about this somewhere on here that suggesting leaving the tighter gap in place, and not open to .028. This is what I did, and it seems to work well.
     
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  25. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Thank you for the various responses, and pointing towards ignition related issues, always something to learn. Always nice when the most balzingly obvious and simple fix is the outcome!
     

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