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Coming to the experts...F50 input needed

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by kaoss, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. kaoss

    kaoss Formula 3

    Jul 29, 2006
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    As most of you know, we're more into the Lambo's...but that doesn't stop us from brokering, buying or selling F-cars...but when it comes to specialty F-cars, I know some things about most of them, but I know when it's time to ask opinions. Given the market shifts as of late, what would a 7k mile F50 in need of a major service and fuel cell replacement...but has hardtop, soft top, luggage, all tools, books etc and never been on the track. Also has new tires on it...what would a ball park figure be on something like this? Both wholesale and retail of course? Seen them priced all over the board, so what would you guys think about the real market price on something along these lines?
     
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  3. Jedi

    Jedi Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh, it's just an old POS anyway :D Tell ya what I'm going to do - I'll give you my '86 328 GTS plus
    an extra 50K and take it off your hands... :) Whadya say? I'm sure Roy will go for the deal

    Jedi

    [hey - I can wish, can't I?]
     
  4. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    $450k retail, $410k cash price wholesale. We're in tough times.
     
  5. rossocorsa13

    rossocorsa13 F1 Rookie

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    That's insane. I can remember when they were going for around $900K. Crazy.

    Good for buyers, though, if you've got the cash.
     
  6. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Markets go up and down. An owner can hang on for another up cycle one day if she wants more cash, but selling into this market at this time is not going to bring a premium.

    No harm, no foul, just life.
     
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  8. ddemuro

    ddemuro Formula 3

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    Not that tough. Add at least $100k. I think the days of sub-$500k F50s (in any decent shape) are gone forever.
     
  9. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

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    #7 Tipo815, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    He said F50 not F40. Find me one similar to the one being described in this thread for your full retail price and I'll buy it now. You obviously don't circulate in the high end arena since your estimates show signs of being delusional. You have NO idea what market value is on a F50 if you think it begins with a "4." I challenge you to find me one at the price you are quoting.

    Kevin - In all seriousness (since No Doubt isn't offering you any valuable information) - the number is going to begin with a "7" at the lowest possible end (only because of the fuel bladder issue and allowing for any other issues). There are only 56 US F50s in existence of which some have been exported over the years. There could very well be less than 50 US examples in the country. There are currently no US examples for sale on the open market and I know of at least two people looking for one. PM me details and I will readily forward them to the appropriate parties.
     
  10. cicatrix

    cicatrix Karting

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    yet one has been bought for $675k.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 Napolis, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009


    Is this a converted euro or US car?

    IMO converted euro 550K wholesale. US wholesale 650K. 50K to fully service it. Converted Euro 650K retail. US retail 750K.
     
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  13. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

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    Not by me ... but if you know someone that did then more power to him ...
     
  14. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

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    I would say that your estimates are realistic but should probably allow for some variance:

    Euro $550k-$600k wholesale and $650k-$700k retail
    US $650k-$700k wholesale and $750k-$800k retail

    Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule one way or the other. But my previous point regarding No Doubt's post is that he obviously does not know the market if he thinks F50s - any F50 - is a $400k car.
     
  15. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 No Doubt, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    ...and another has just been bought for $516k: http://www.whatonemillionbuys.com/tag/ferrari-f50 (VIN: ZFFTA46B000105193)


    $50k to service the one mentioned in this thread puts a retail price on it of $466k. I said $450k, which only allows $16,000 in depreciation from that November sale to today.
     
  16. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Kevin: This car is being shopped all over the place, and has been offered to me also. Send me an e-mail and I will tell you whats going on. Thanks.
     
  17. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    No Doubt: In a discussion about the perceived value of a USA F50, it would be a good idea for you to realize that their values are completely different from those of the European F50 you are speaking about. The values of European F50s are totally irrelevant to this thread, and anybody busy discussing them is off topic. The OP is asking about the perceived value of a USA spec F50.

    Thanks.
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    +1
     
  19. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    I might suggest that if such a detail is so crucially important, that people in the business who are requesting outside opinions might consider including it in their description of the car.

    Frankly, for me, when a car is being wildly shopped around it means that someone wants a cash price today, and that's more relevant than many other factors.
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, the differing values between USA cars is crucially important if you are a buyer, a seller, or deal with them. I would most definitley have included that description in my original posting, and why he did not is something you'll have to ask him. In fact I wouldn't have used this method to ascertain the value of this or any other car, but, each to his/her own.

    However, you'll notice the commentary by different people noting the difference in values. You cant escape it, USA cars have a different value, and you are illustrating values using cars that are not USA cars.
     
  21. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

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    #18 Tipo815, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    You seem to be mixing up retail and wholesale. The one you are referring to that sold for $516,000 is a EURO car AND sold at an AUCTION. So if it's a Euro car (which arguably is worth at least a $100,000 to $150,000 less than a US car) and was sold at an auction (which arguably is closer to wholesale than retail) where would a US spec car be priced? ADD $100,000 to $150,000 and you're in the mid-$600,000 range at an auction price for a US car with retail probably being somewhere in the $700,000 range.
     
  22. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    That's true.

    Add the USA conversion cost (all measures, depreciation, etc.) to my Euro numbers, then subtract the appropriate amount for the car being wildly shopped all around for an immediate cash price, and you will have a ballpark figure for a USA model F50 if sold today.
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    OK.

    My work here is done. I just wanted you to understand there is that difference, for a number of reasons, and it is what it is...

    By the way, it is far less desirable for most of my collector clients to import an F50 to the USA for the following reasons:

    1. They'd rather wait for a good USA car as they consider it one of a limited series of 56 cars.
    2. Eu cars are really run hard and often put away wet (literally) so they are generally not in as good condition as USA cars (exceptions exist of course).
    3. The process of legalizing a car is a MAJOR PAIN in the rear end, what with all the hoops to jump through, and the process can take a year, not to mention the cost. Then you end up with a Eu F50 essentially modified in the middle of its life to meet USA federalization.
     
  24. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    I think that you make a good point about my data being European. I'm unconvinced, however, that at the supercar level that an auction always represents something closer to wholesale. I'll defer to your opinion and not further belabor that fact, however, for the sake of civility and respect.

    But are the conversion costs really $100k to $150k to mod an F50, properly, to USA spec (including customs and transportation expenses, obviously)?

    Also, what if I just want my F50 for track use only here in the U.S.? Do I have to pay to convert the car to USA road specs, or are race cars allowed to be imported and raced here?
     
  25. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Markets have phases and cycles. Sometimes, collectors drive markets. Other times, not.
     
  26. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

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    Kevin - As you've noticed from the content of this thread there's a critical distinction between Euro spec and US spec cars. It's even more exaggerated when you're talking about one of the supercars/collectibles. There are only 56 total US spec F50s. Of those 56 a number have been exported by collectors and a few have suffered "incidents." When it comes down to it there might be three dozen or so truly collectible US spec F50s in the country that have been maintained properly and are in the hands of collectors/enthusiasts.

    When a buyer is considering the acquistion of one of the supercars price - as long as it's reasonable - is usually secondary to the history/condition of the car they are seeking. If someone is going to buy a F50 the difference between a nice US car and a nice Euro car has to be substantial. For the most part the person writing a check for $600,000 can also write a check for $800,000. At those levels it doesn't make sense to compromise. Either number is a substantial investment. That's why the Euro cars are worth so much less. Add to that the fact that it appears (by Joe's comments) that the car you are referring to has some "stories" attached to it. It's conceivably a $500,000 car with all the issues you are representing - Euro, fuel bladder, full service, and a potential story. In deference to No Doubt maybe it is possible for a F50 to be a $400,000 something car (depends on the story I guess).
     
  27. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Only due to the economy. These are tough times right now.
     
  28. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jeffrey, just to clarify: its a USA car Kevin, myself, and a number of other parties have been offered.
     

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