Comments ...

Jim

I think you're referring to Bob Petersen in Devon UK who makes a range of exotic prewar style Bentley specials.

They are nearly all based on the unloved MkVI steel saloons (1946-1952) which can still be bought from £2000 upwards in very rotten condition, and sometimes fitted by him with the Rolls Royce B81 straight eight commercial/military engine. Indeed he has a stack of MkVIs under tarpaulins lying around waiting. 5208 were said to have been built.

Bob also does top quality restorations on original cars, Vintage & post-1930 (to be pedantic).

I've not yet heard any protests against the destruction of MkVIs although I guess there must be some who deprecate this. It's an interesting parrallel to the GTE story as this is just the situation of GTEs 20 or 30 years ago. A rotten MkVI is definitely not an economic proposition to restore at the moment.

I'm not a member but the Bentley Drivers Club (UK) seems to positively encourage Bentley specials, much as the VSCC did with pre-war specials until not so long ago.

Will

 

No question Bob does nice work and some of the 250 GTO replicas are nice work as well. One Man's 250 GT's are another Mans MKIV's.

Pandora's box is tempting but once opened it can't be shut...

Personally I'd like to have one of Bob's creations but have no interest in a 250 GTO replica but I did once come very close to having Coco and Tom Meade cut and convert my 275 GTB into a "250 GTO Spyder" so I'm not throwing any rocks.

 

I agree somewhat (even if taking away one Enzo still leaves more than the official 400!

But we are talking replica's here. I think Jim's creations can hardly be called replicas. If so they are quite bad ones!
If Jim had taken an Enzo to create an exact replica of a 330 P4 I think he would fall in the same category PSK has targeted (even if PSK only makes a provision for old cars).

 

The logic is not the same. Commissioning Pinninfarina to rebody a car that is new is nowhere near using a perfectly good 250GTE for a GTO fake. A closer analogy would be to use a Scuderia to make and Enzo.

George

 

To be sensible I propose that all cars that are over 40 years old are considered heritege listed like old buildings and modifications limited.
Pete[/QUOTE]

Good grief! As one who has seen what Historic Designations have done to people's freedoms with regard to real estate, all I can say is this would be the worst thing I can think of (barring running out of oil) happening to the classic car hobby. That and the fact that actually implementing it would be absurd.
And I completely agree with your opinions of replicas/fakes, etc.

George

 

Jim's cars are obviously not replicas or fakes. And I have no problem with them.

So, by your logic, something like Hilary Raab's GTO spyder would be perfectly fine? It's clearly not a replica or a fake anything. It also started life as a PF Coupe.

Those of you saying that a 430 or an Enzo is just another series production car may not realize that a GTE or a PF coupe was viewed exactly the same way in the past (and still today, by many people).

 

I'm not sure that an owner who is interested in creating a replica would really care all that much about the tar-and-feathering from this crowd.

You can give him the frowning of a lifetime when you come across him on the road, but whatever. I personally see a guy who knows what he wants, and digs cars.

You don't want GTEs cut up? Create an application form for the Old Ferrari Owners Club that he has to join to earn the right to buy one. But who would get to decide what the rules are? Can you only fill the tires with air from Modena?

As Mr. Glickenhaus pointed out, it's a slippery slope.

I think this territory was covered pretty extensively several times before:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169536&page=2

 

We have definitely covered this territory many, many times before in the eight years I have been participating in this forum.

Unfortunately, my sense is that the pace of the destruction of vintage 2+2s is picking up. It used to be that our discussion would center around "how far gone does a GTE have to be to be legitimate fake fodder." But now we have seen twice in the last couple of months, very good GTEs being unceremoniously butchered for fakes - one for its motor, and the one in this thread for everything but its body.

I have always been solidly with Marcel, Pete, Julio, Kare and many others who frequent this forum on the issue of fakes. But the REAL problem I see here, beyond the philosophical arguments re: why someone would even want a fake, is that we are slowly but surely RUNNING OUT OF VINTAGE 2+2s.

Someone made an analogy to PETA earlier in this thread. In my veiw, the primary flaw in this analogy is that one can always breed more minks!! Ferrari is not making any more 1960s Ferrari 2+2s. They have become truly endangered species.

I posed the following question in the thread where a poster made the bizarre argument on a vintage Ferrari board that since all queen mothers are pieces of crap, there should be no heartburn turning them all into fakes. At what point does it become a tragedy for the people who are creating the demand for fakes (or are indifferent) for another real vintage Ferrari 2+2 to be turned into a fake? When there are only 100 originals left? 50? 25?

I think we're past the point where we can afford to be indifferent about chopping up real cars into fakes; we're talking about very low production numbers for the get-go. Subtract from that number the attrition thru (1) use/wrecks for over 40 years, and (2) the fake-industry for the last 23 or so years. This leads most educated guesses for surviving cars for each of the early 2+2 models to be in the several hundreds at most. We have the keepers of some of the registries on this site; maybe they can hazard an educated guess?

I used to think that restored cars were immune from the slaughter, but the experiences of the last couple months have shown that to be invalid. So when does it stop?

"I'm on a mission from God."
Elwood Blues

 

Do you think there will ever be a time where the 2+2 cars are so rare that their desirability will surpass replicas in terms of price and therefore people will begin to butcher replicas and unite the chassis/engine with their original bodies?

 

To be honest,many of the W.O cars had very nice period limo or enclosed bodies,were trashed and replaced by open tourer bodies also many bodies due to the roads were worn out.
With RR's most bodies were worn out.
But .....the big difference is the bodies were not built by RR or W.O,they only supplied the chassis.

 

spot on.
Bodies were updated or changed as style changed.

 

The solution, is stop selling the 2+2s. Then the source dries up. There, you've done it.
Or, keep selling and don't complain, as you are the other 50% of the deal.
Corruptor and corrupted. It takes two to tango. Yin and Yang...No more replicas.
Besides, you are not supposed to sell cars you love, right?
I woudn't.
Let your kids worry about it, better yet, inherit your passion to them.
I know mine love them, even Grandma does!

I bought some "replica" watches in the Orient, as around here, they can be a lifesaving bargaining chip as it's faster than visiting ATM's at gunpoint.
Only at the store would they know...

Problem is, I feel like I'm plagiarizing.

Regards, Alberto

 

As I remember it was quite common with Silver Ghosts. The cars lasted forever, Rolls produced no new replacement model for a long time and the prevailing styles changed.

 

Only real solution is to get the cars in the hands of enthusiasts.

Ostracizing them will not work. So they can't show their car at Pebble or Cavallino, most of the owners could care less about working the system if they are willing to create their own replica.

 

very few pre 1920 Silver Ghosts have there orginal bodies.

 

No. Rare does not necessarily equal desirable.

 

One more reason not to slam 400s and Mondials, if people think they are trash, less concern about parting them out. The big shows slobbering over the rarest of the rare also doesn't help, especially the concours fields full of race cars that were never that well prepared when they came out of the factory gates...

 

What you describe sounds a lot like a fetish.

 

Concours is a fetish. I'd rather drive.