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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by PSk, Nov 22, 2010.

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  1. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    I wasn't implying otherwise. My definition of a fetish is an objectification. Drive is, as they say, a verb ;)
     
  2. 365GTC/4

    365GTC/4 Formula 3

    Apr 7, 2005
    2,287
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    John
  3. h2oskier

    h2oskier F1 Veteran

    Oct 1, 2006
    5,252
    inside someone hot
    Full Name:
    MJA
    My only desire is selfish. I hope people stop destroying them to keep the pricing down. I like to see the vintage owners hot and bothered about the destruction of these beautiful cars but the irony is everyone's cars are worth more everytime it happens.
     
  4. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    Every replica that gets built, makes clearer and clearer how little people appreciate the history of the company and its products as an entity. I think it is very very sad and make Ferrari people look very bad. The on going discussion has helped me understand why so many "real car folks" get disturbed as soon as the word Ferrari is mentioned.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  5. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    870
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    George
    Raab's car falls into the category of a fake. It is trying to be a GTO, albeit a convertible that they never made.

    George
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    And the last comment that I bolded is the problem. Again once anything gets to a certain age, no matter how boring it was or even is it becomes historically significant, thus a GTE or PF coupe are now historically significant and more important just because of their age than they were.
    Pete
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    They didn't but David Piper did by cutting the roof off of his and racing it at Daytona that way.

    It was reconverted back onto a coupe at a later point.
     
  8. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Or as Robt. Towne put it in Chinatown "Of course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough."
     
  9. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    23,988
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    So in 40 years it will be proper to complain about Jim's cars?

     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    The answer is no, because Jim's car as it is in 40 years time will have aged and thus it's current format will now have the history, not the Enzo and 430.

    I can see you are trying to start a debate, so I'm not going to say anymore. It is a simple concept and why the Breadvan is more important now than the SWB that it replaced and also why using a 250GTE now to create a replica is wrong.

    Best
    Pete
     
  11. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
    2,037
    San Francisco
    It's going to be hard to convince every wealthy man who has always wanted a GTO not to make one for himself, in spite of any public scorn he may receive. Not all of us live forever, and when the realization hits that he will be dead and gone before GTO prices return to Earth, emotions take over, and irrational decisions are made.
     
  12. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    870
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    George
    Jim,
    cutting up a race car, in-period, is a grey area for me. If it had been highly successful, and kept that way, there may be some merit in it staying that way. I wouldn't change to Breadvan back to it's original configuation.
    Raab's car was a fun exercise, for him, at a time when the cars were (dare I say, just) old cars. Cutting up an older car, now, is significantly different. Of course, in my opinion, as always.

    George
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    When David did it he was just making a Race car faster and as he was a racer that makes sense to me.

    Race cars were modified every day in the day.

    Best
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    #89 PSk, Dec 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  15. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    870
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    George
    Jim,
    maybe I wasn't clear. I completely understand and agree about modifying race cars in period. They are created to win and modifying them is natural, understandable, and I would do it myself. The grey area for me would be whether to keep the modifications forty years later when restoring, etc.

    George
     
  16. cdu

    cdu Karting

    May 30, 2007
    77
    If they can make this, they ought to be able to make the frames and the running gear and the motors as well.

    One reason for taking the frames is to get the chassis number; there are plenty of other cars that have frames that can donate their chassis numbers and thus titles and be equally "legal". Yes, that's my hillman minx; I improved it a little while I was restoring it...

    The other reason is that it's lots cheaper to reuse a frame and running gear and a motor than it is to make a new bespoke frame and running gear.

    Do these people have the business model the Easter Islanders had? Chop trees / harvest 250gtes until you run out, then go out of business? Doesn't seem smart to me, but I guess plenty of people do plenty stupid things all the time.


    The best we can do is to get these things declared as salvage vehicles and require they go through an inspection that would be required for any substantially rebuilt car after a collision. Typically that involves getting a new VIN and having the state of the vehicle documented in the title.

    That, and it would be nice if someone started making reproduction frames and running gear and motors/transmissions, so the gutted bodies could be put back on the road.


    Asking people to stop doing this because it is wrong is not going to get anywhere, you need to make the decision make sense to them financially, not just morally and aesthetically.
     
  17. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2004
    12,586
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Peter den Biggelaar
    Lowering the roof or making it into a spider? Pictures? I only know of the green Piper GTO with the lowered roof.
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I was told he cut the roof off at Daytona as it was so hot there.

    Others?

    I think he had 2 GTO's at different times. This is the one he bought new.
     
  19. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    my business is primarily dedicated to saving cars like the 365GT4 2+2 and 308 Dino gt4's...not necessarily restoring them...
    but making them as good as we can within a given budget...and even that gets me a lot of flak...sometimes you just can't win in this game.

    ignoring, for a second, the fact that the pictured shop is producing replicar bodies...it's a super cool shop...the kind of place i dream about...

    but really Pete, given that you'll 'sink as low' as a 365 GT4 2+2 or Dino 308, can't you acquire one and begin to realise your dream ?
    as we speak, they're about as worthless as they'll ever be, no ?
     
  20. cdu

    cdu Karting

    May 30, 2007
    77
    #95 cdu, Dec 2, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010

    I think you're living in a dreamland if you think you'll be able to keep a 430 on the road in 40 years.

    There are simply too many electronic gizmos in it to break that render the car impossible to pass whatever local inspection standards require the OBDII systems to say "all good". And you can't simply rip it all out and replace it with a megasquirt system or whatever, because the car has to have the emissions systems that came with the motor.

    This isn't like the good old days where the important bits of the car are made out of steel or brass or aluminum, and if they break you can make another. These days, the important bits of the car are made of information and you're legally prohibited from duplicating them.

    One day soon, Ferrari won't supply replacement bits, and at that instant, the clock is ticking for all models that need that replacement bit, or you have to drive it where there are fewer restrictions on vehicles (race track, cuba, whatever).

    Up to OBDII, you're okay because things can be reverse engineered and remanufactured. After, and certainly when talking about 1998+ cars, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to support the electronics or you're SOL.


    Some companies have made it clear they intend to support their older cars. I wouldn't worry as much about a Mercedes or a McLaren, who seem to stand behind their cars. Ferrari? Not as much.
     
  21. Michael Call

    Michael Call Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 6, 2008
    1,055
    S.L.C. Utah
    Full Name:
    Michael D. Call
    Some companies have made it clear they intend to support their older cars. I wouldn't worry as much about a Mercedes or a McLaren, who seem to stand behind their cars. Ferrari? Not as much.[/QUOTE]

    I wouldn't worry about Ferrari making these parts available. I would worry about the ransome they will want for them. There are always clever people in the aftermarket that will come up with a solution, as it will be worth their time to do so considering the scale of the original production run.
     
  22. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2009
    1,033
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Ted
    I don't believe this is true...

    VW enthusiasts can do all sorts of things to their (post 1998) cars via the aftermarket VAG-COM system. It's much much more capable than a basic OBDII scanner, but is well within financial reach of the average VW tuner/enthusiast.

    BMW motorcycles don't have OBD...they have a proprietary system that supposedly requires the GT1 system to do anything. Well, the aftermarket stepped in there, too...the GS-911 allows the owner to do all sorts of things. $300 plus a smart phone gives you 95% of the GT1 functionality.

    The guys behind both of the above aftermarket products reverse engineered them into existence. It's not impossible. So, the question becomes: will it ever make $en$e for someone to reverse engineer Ferrari's systems? Old fashioned supply/demand will dictate that.
     
  23. Michael Call

    Michael Call Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 6, 2008
    1,055
    S.L.C. Utah
    Full Name:
    Michael D. Call
    There will be tens of thousands of Ferrari owners that will be potental customers for their services. It will certainly make $en$e.
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Love to, and maybe after I have finished my Alfa I will go looking. I'm not a wealthy man, just a fan. But I also might build another club race car ;)

    Pete
     
  25. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
    13,477
    Never home
    Full Name:
    Dr. Dumb Ass
    #100 judge4re, Dec 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This one is never going to be sold in my lifetime.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     

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