Concours Seminar - FOC - NorCal | FerrariChat

Concours Seminar - FOC - NorCal

Discussion in 'Events Discussion' started by dyerhaus, Mar 22, 2023.

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  1. dyerhaus

    dyerhaus Formula Junior
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    Nov 4, 2012
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    Santa Rosa, California
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    Christopher Dyer
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  2. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Glad to see the F.O.C. is still active. They got swag?;)

    Please post comments and pictures, Chris.

    Thanks.
     
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  3. dyerhaus

    dyerhaus Formula Junior
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    The FOC is very active! In fact, a new chapter just started in my area (the FCA Monterey chapter left the FCA and every member and board member formed the NorCal chapter of the FOC). The do have swag… but you actually have to be a member to access the store site!

    I'll post some pics for sure!
     
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  4. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Does FOC use IAC/PFA judging guideline system or something else ?
    Just curious.
     
  5. dyerhaus

    dyerhaus Formula Junior
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    Don't know… I don't really know anything about judging… but maybe I will after the seminar!
     
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  6. dyerhaus

    dyerhaus Formula Junior
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    The Concours Seminar yesterday was a lot of fun! Some cool cars, great people, great speakers, amazing food, and the mock judging was a blast!

    TTR - FOC doesn't do judging, but the seminar wasn't specific to one type of judging. One speaker was specifically about IAC/PFA judging, another spoke about SCCA judging, and the other speaker spoke about Ford Model A judging (which is absolutely insane!). The FOC is hosting a new concours for Car Week this year, so maybe they will adopt their own judging—which would be IAC/PFA.

    I feel like the "mock judging" on my car was way more accurate than it's ever been judged in a real concours! —and that's saying something as I wouldn't have won anything with the score I got at this event!! I was shocked when I took home the Silver award at Concorso last year as I expected to bring home nothing. My car is in great shape, but there are a whole lot of things that aren't correct, missing or need repairing. For the mock judging session my score was 84.5 (and 87 is needed at the minimum to get Silver), but at Concorso I scored 91.5 (which is just half a point away from Gold). Ironically, my car is in better shape and more correct now than it was for Concorso, and at Concorso the judges incorrectly knocked me down for two things they shouldn't have (both of which were 1 point each). I couldn't argue with the mock judging, they found everything I knew was wrong!

    Here's a few shots from the event:
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    And here's a few shot from the Mock Judging sessions:
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  7. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

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    If a judge incorrectly assesses a deduction you should immediately appeal to the Chief Judge who can correct an error.

    Judges are very knowledgeable, but are human and can make a mistake. Even your mock judges may have approved something on your car that should have been a deduction.

    Some day AI will take over and ChatGPT will accurately judge all our cars! :D:D:D
     
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  8. dyerhaus

    dyerhaus Formula Junior
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    Yep! I did that. But they didn't correct the error, probably because that would have bumped me to a different award level (despite admitting I was right).
     
  9. HMB-Dino

    HMB-Dino Formula 3
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    This is the 1st I've heard of FCA Monterey members going to FOC...and I was an FCA MRY member until it disbanded.
     
  10. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for reporting back.

    AFAIK, judging corrections under IAC/PFA guidelines do not work that way.
    Owner/presenter shouldn't even find out the specifics of any deductions during the day of the event, but can request copies of scoring sheets (related to their own car only) a week or two later and if any incorrect deductions are believed to be present, owner/presenter can appeal, but may have to provide proof.
     
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  11. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
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    yes. we are having a big cruise on sat.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #12 Rifledriver, Apr 12, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
    Thats not correct. A great deal of discussion goes on, on the spot, especially if its correctable on the field. I have asked many time for an explanation of an item not strictly correct because depending on the situation it may not be a deduction.

    You have spoken many times very authoritatively for someone who knows so little about the subject.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #13 Rifledriver, Apr 12, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
    Well in your 1st line it isn't really supposed to work that way.

    The Corvette club takes an entire day to judge a car. Porsche club has a mob judge a car. The FCA has 3 people judge a car and it is done in 15 minutes. We never expect every team to find every deficiency in every car in that time frame. We also never hear the judges side when some here say their car was judged wrong.
    I have had many entrants insist it is supposed to be that way. Whatever. If requested I provide proof 100% of the time for the deductions my team makes but am requested to do so in a minority of cases. And yes, mistakes are made. We try to find them and make sure it does not happen again but we are so seldom informed we cannot fix what we are not informed about. At this point I personally go over every single score card from FCA National events looking for irregularities. But that never replaces being asked.

    Some seem to feel this is an adversarial event. Nothing can be further from the truth. Our goal is to help in correcting things that are wrong if you have a desire to do so. I spend a great deal of time after the events providing proof if required or information if desired to those who request it.
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Also it needs to be said, local events are locally controlled. Many state they are done to strict IAC/PFA guide lines and do not have enough experience to do so.
    Dont conflate national events with local events.
     
  15. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for the clearing this.
    Apparently I have been inadequately(?) instructed during FCA judges meetings and seminars I’ve attended.
    OTOH, I’ve been aware of (15 min.) “field corrections” allowed for malfunctioning electrical/mechanical components, but that’s all.
    Never encountered or heard of any “field corrections” allowed for incorrect items, but I guess anything’s possible.
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    You mean the same meetings I have attended and came away with a completely different message?

    How many national level events did you judge at? Not a trick question.
     
  17. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

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    Thanks for clarifying, and I have to apologize to TTR. I was thinking of Coppa Bella Machina judging when replying to Concours judging. In my first CBM judging the judge was making an honest mistake. I asked him to check and he followed up with who I assume was the Chief Judge. He came back and said no problem, the item was correct.

    I have entered my 612 in two FCA Concours and two Coppa Bella Machinas. I can tell you all the judges and the Chief Judge were absolute professionals, cordial and contributed to a fantastic experience for me.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Not terribly surprising. CBM takes a lot of bodies. Some get drafted on short notice and since it is a simple function test it does not require a great deal of knowledge of a particular car. Either a light bulb works or it doesn't but there is sometimes confusion that needs to be handled.
    It has become very popular and we are getting more cars through the process than ever before. Leslie has done a great job getting people to help. Many of the early car judges used to just disappear but they cannot refuse her.
     
  19. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    #19 TTR, Apr 12, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
    Assuming you mean FCA, one.

    Several FCA regionals + some non-FCA events using IAC/PFA and/or PB type guidelines.
    Have also presented fozen or so cars, including Ferraris, for judging at many, although none at FCA Nationals.

    But yes, there appears to be a lot of inconsistencies between events and guidelines, etc.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I said regionals and local events are run to their standards and no one else. Not a single one in the country has the personnel experienced and trained to do it to IAC/PFA standards. Don't conflate the two. They are done by local volunteers doing what they can. It has little relationship to the national events.
    What I always find interesting is how many stand back and criticise yet never lift a finger to effect change. Local clubs reflect in a very real way the effort and quality of the people pitching in to make them work.
     
  21. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Brian, I would expect that you intend to include Cavallino and Pebble Beach as correctly following the IAC/PFA along with the FCA National.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #22 Rifledriver, Apr 13, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2023
    Sort of. PB really follows their own standards. We give a great deal more latitude in cosmetics. At PB it is taken for granted the cars are not drivers but I think they are coming around to favor more originality and give some ground to that over perfection. I am never likely to be asked. I've pissed off a few of the wrong people.
    When I was still on the board we were asked for an advisory vote. A very well known 1 of 2 car was being done by a very well known restorer. We agreed the nearly perfect original interior with some patina and slightly delaminated original glass was preferable in the interest of originality than to replace it all.

    Also PB scoring picks a winner I believe.

    So far Cavallino is the same but I sense changes are afoot. Time will tell. Tell you all about it in private some time.

    Also it is reported Ferrari Club Australia uses the same system but it came to my attention recently they do not. They just think they do. They misunderstand a great deal.
     
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