Considering 575M

Amazing cars. I've had mine a little while now, it drives like a dream. The servicing costs aren't bad bc the timing belts are upfront so the engine doesn't come out. Depending on the clutch life and when the last service was done will determine price. As for a DD, I use mine in the same manner, it drives great but ill tell you the stereo isn't incredible, otherwise its amazing, its one of the smoothest cars you get from Ferrari. It's not rough like a 355/360/430. Its just a great driver. I know all the fanboys on here will tell you the 550 bc of the 6 speed but the 575 is better in every way + they made around 2000 of them vs 3600 i believe 550's. In the long run all will probably go up in price from here but the 575 being better in every way + being made in much smaller quantities + being the first ferrari v12 w/paddles will be the best investment imo. Others will say the 550 with sticks will be better as an investment, either way the shape is classic and all will probably be very valuable. 3600 550s is peanuts as is 2000 575s, a car like the jaguar E type was made over 30,000 times and those sell for wild values. Mercedes made nearly 4000 of the 300sl between coupes and convertibles and those are well over $1M today. Either maranello is rare,beautiful, and a dream to drive. To me, they're the most beautiful Ferrari ever made bc they combine timeless style with modern performance and comfort. The 599 as great as it is looks way too bland, its not good when amateurs confuse it with a california, the maranellos look like nothing else in the lineup.

 

While I applaud your enthusiasm for the 575, Dan,I think the OP and you will wait a very long time for them to become 'very valuable'. 2000 units is a pretty large number in terms of traditional Ferraris. Longer term, they will probably hold their inflation adjusted value but there will probably be ups and downs on the way. Of coupse as with l all modern Ferraris the value is mileage sensitive and this is a factpr with a DD.

And while Maranellos are undeniably elegant, they don't IMO have the classical beauty of a 500 Superfast, a 250 SWB or several other tipo.

Having said all this, the 575 is a very nice car to drive, with oodles of power, good handling and ride. It is a comfortable and a dynamically competent grand tourer.

I drive my 575 F1 quite frequently and thoroughly enjoy it. It is reliable, not expensive to maintain compared with top end European 'executive' saloons and very useable. Problems? The F1 can be a bit awkward when cold at very low speeds in confined spaces (the tick over is such that some deft check-brakingcan be necessary); its a bit of a gas guzzler when cold and the steering is very sensitive - you need to concentrate!

 

While it may be a lot compared to a daytona or a 275 GTB, facts are facts and the 300SL mercedes was produced at nearly 2x the quantity and the jaguar E type, nice ones are well over $150k and there were 30,000 of those made. Beauty is all in the eye of the beholder, and younger guys like myself in our 30s for the most part probably will drive up the prices of their childhood dream machines the same way the generation before us did. Cars are all about passion and one man's passion isn't always anothers. Im a car guy but I want my dream machines not the dream machines of my 70 year old father.

Anyways the 575 is a dream machine the only thing I'll say I dislike about it is the immobilizer its so annoying bc sometimes you open the car and want to talk to someone outside for a second and the car locks up and you have to get out, lock it, unlock it and do it all over. The immobilizer is a real piece of junk imo but its one of those quirks that will make your car an antique one day when we look back and laugh at how horrible the F1 system in the 575 was vs the new cars and how hilarious the immobilizer system was.

 

Been on this forum since 2007 and have never seen this combination before at least in the states. Blue Pozzi over red. Car has some nice options with modulars, Daytona’s, leather rear shelf and fire extinguisher.
Don’t know this one but would recommend a personal inspection based on a lower tier dealer and dark pictures at the minimum. The red interiors in these cars are usually more of an oxblood almost maroon in person even though they appear red in pics. I happen to like it but would have to be seen with the blue. There are few actual red interiors around but not the norm. The price although I wish it wasn’t, might be on higher end in current market.
Bill
FL

 

Dan- Again, there were only 3083 550s produced, not 3600. That is not going to make much difference in value later compared to the 2064 575Ms and these are not rare Ferraris. Nobody has a crystal ball on future values, so who knows? I would give up on the song that F1 575Ms, especially early ones, will one day be more valuable. That is not going to happen. Like the C2 Corvettes, where the 67 is the most valuable, especially 427s, late 575Ms are generally worth more because of all the updates incorporated. There were 1400 300 SL Gullwings built and 1858 roadsters, so that is barking up the wrong tree, too. They were separate models with a crossover date in 1957.

Like Bill said, this is a very nice 2003 575M with most of the good options (calipers (might have FHP, worth checking), Daytonas, shelf, modulars) and very low mileage plus some extras like the extinguisher. The Bordeaux interior is nice because they left the upper dash and steering wheel in Nero, so not too much red showing. Might have been better with Nero carpets, but the red carpets look fine. Get a Ferrari dealer to pull a build or option sheet for you, so you know everything she has.

My 575M is a DD and they work very well for that if well maintained. As long as you own a gas station, that is.

 

Looks very nice and mileage is low. I suspect that the interior won't look as bright in real life as it does in the photos (shame IMO - I think it looks lovely in the photos). Blu Pozzi is a great colour on a Maranello (or any other car, come to that). F1 or manual is a personal choice, but IMO a 550 is much better value than a 575 manual, which commands rarity premium far in excess of any difference in ability. I also happen to prefer the look of a 550, but that is purely personal.

 

Dan, I don't disagree with much of what you say and it is true that people fulfilling boyhood aspirations have driven up prices for several years, However, of the comparisons you cite, I wonder how many decent E Types actually survive today . 300SLs were immeasurably hetter built but according to several sources about 1000 gullwings still survive.

Ferraris are generally much better maintained now than these icons were when they were merely 'old cars' to many, and attrition rates are likely to be much lower..

Obviously, several Ferrari tipo have gone through the roof in the past few years but these are probably atypical. I bought a 330 GTC 37 years ago and have tracked asking prices since. These show a steady rise from about £12K in 1981 to a high of over £250K in 1989. They then crashed to around £60K and have only risen to current levels in the last 4 or 5 years. For most of the time these cars bobbed along at a relatively constant price The US picture was much the same and I converted figures at the exchange rate of the day.

Don't get me wrong, at one level I am happy to see prices rise, although this tends to exclude many real enthusiasts, but the headline numbers can be a nit misleading.

This is drifting a long way from the OP's question but to get back to that, you will probably avoid depreciation but don;t look on the car as an alternative investment. And let's face it, they are meant for driving!

 

Dude no offense, but I love how you say they're not "rare" ferraris. In terms of modern Ferraris that all guys in their 20s and 30s grew up idolizing, what was a rare "production" car than the 575m. You're an older gentleman, im 31 years old, the Ferraris you grew up idolizing and the ferraris I grew up idolizing are two different cups of tea. Ferraris a long time ago were much rarer obviously but that doesn't mean anything. I am a trader for a living, long/short I don't just buy things, I short things heavily. The collector car market of today with cars that are valued based on emotions of wealthy men from 45-100 years old is one thats reached bubble status but thats fine bc as long as those guys love the machines and they have the money they can pay whatever they want. That doesn't mean there will always be buyers for their cars and in 30 years I would be willing to bet we see a large decline in those vehicles when baby boomers die off, Personally Im 31, I have some money and I will never be touching any of those 1960s,1970s, or 1980s Ferrari's, it just not for me. Perhaps its for others but for me it is not. Our generation typically loves the latest and greatest machines. I can't imagine paying $600k+ for a car with no performance and frankly mediocre beauty IN MY EYES. My eyes are different than yours bc I grew up in an era of testarossa,355, and 550/575. Guys my age and younger will be just like me and they will want their particular childhood dreams, and when you look at 600 or so 575M's in the United States, that is extremely rare I dont know what on earth you are thinking when you say otherwise.

The 550 has a stick, thats awesome, it has a ton of fans and buyers, either way all I've said and you've refuted multiple times is that the 575M is indeed rare whether you believe so or not. Im not trying to compare it to a 275 GTB, sure they made way less and sure they made way less daytonas but the fact is the 575M is freaking rare my god the 300SL cars are all over $1M today and there were 3800 of those made in total, thats almost double 575M production. The Jaguar E Type is a classic, 30k of those were made, corvettes from the 60s were made by the thousands and they're classic today. Cars are all about passion, the younger people like myself, our passions are not based on the passions of the generation before us. That is all Im saying. When you have 350 million americans and an obscene amount of wealth in this nation, finding 600 guys, or less with wrecked ones, who dreamed of a 575M when they were kids is not that hard to find in 15-20 years.

Again do a search of something like #ferrari575 on instagram and there's nearly nothing bc no young people own one. Instagram is something for younger generations. Well I just created my own IG yesterday to start posting my 575 and sure enough i've gotten a handful of likes already. These things take time but my generation will have car enthusiasts just like yours, I dont know your age but im assuming a 20-30 year age gap between us. I just happen to have made some money a little earlier than others in my group and thats ok, but trust me when 600 of these rare machines are in this country, they will get gobbled up as RARE in the future. Here is my instagram if you care to follow, Ill be adding pics often from here on

https://www.instagram.com/575danm/

 

Dan- Sorry, that is just so much BS, but, like I have said earlier, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We just do not need to hear it every week or so. Maranellos are not rare Ferraris unless you compare them to much more pedestrian models from other manufacturers. Your separating the 550 and 575M while insisting the 300SL was just one model is talking out of both sides of your mouth. Anyone can tell the difference between the two 300SL models, but only those who care can tell a 550 from a 575M. At least quote the correct numbers of 550s and 575Ms, 3083, and 2064, when making your future comparisons.

Yes, I am older than you and bought my first Ferrari in 1975, a Dino 246 GT for $10,600. Forty plus years of owning Ferraris gives me a different outlook on Ferraris and their values than your "trader" viewpoint.

 

Alright Taz well best of luck to you, you clearly are the expert on the forum, im nobody, just a lowly kid who bought his dream car. You're absolutely right 575M cars are just everywhere. I live in south beach where you see damn near every car on the planet once a week.Bugatti,Lambo, you name it. My 575M gets so many compliments everywhere, so many people tell me how rare it is to see one and im in the car capital of the US. I dont know where you are or who you hang around that makes it seem like 575M are not rare but last I checked 2064 production cars is extremely rare, you're talking 500 or so produced annually? LOL sorry its not a 1 of 3 car or something like that. There's a new wave of buyers in this country, more buyers are coming up, the guys your age have already had all their dream cars, the values are where they are bc of you guys combined with the fact all your home values + portfolio values are at all time highs. Most guys my age are knee deep in student debt and are trying to buy their first home. I was pretty fortunate my parents paid for my college and grad school so when I started making money I didn't really have to pay those loans back. Im one of the lucky guys my age, as more and more pay off student debt and buy their first home, they can then shift their focus to their dream cars. For me the 575M was what I had a poster of when I was 15, your first love was a 246 dino, you bought your first love, I bought mine. The buyers coming into money now are more into my interests than guys from your age bracket. That's just fact we can debate it all you want, I follow trends in all markets for a living, Im not gonna debate with you on the matter. If you think guys my age are going to be lining up to drop a few million on a talbot lago in the future or any other 1930-1950 car you've got another thing coming to you. That bubble will almost certainly burst especially with the mass produced nonsense like 190 SL cars and where they're selling now.

As for what you said about separating the 550/575 ok fine lets combine them, they're still rarer than testarossas and much better cars in every aspect. They're rarer than 355s they're rarer than 360/430. They're rarer than just about every other production ferrari from the 1980's, 90s or 2000s. What's rarer? The 308? The 328? Nope nope nope. So in terms of modern classics, the maranellos are just about the rarest production ferrari guys under 40 grew up with and the 575M in particular was made in much smaller numbers than the 550. Again sounds like you have 30-40 years on me, you should just drive your car and enjoy it, Im the one who bought it to enjoy and speculate on its values in 40 years when im your age.

 

Regardless of the other posts on here, I think the car is nice,.... but the price is, as someone pointed out, a bit on the high side. I am not holding my breath on the investment value of today's Ferrari's, but I think it will come close to holding it's value. I would say you'd need a good reason to pay over market, no matter how small that might be. So good research on the car is essential. Good luck.

 

ECU guy in Florida can reprogram for no immobilizer. Works great. No more annoyance.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

What Jorge actually does is provide a bypass box for the immobilizer.

Dan- You sure can use a lot of words not to say much. Keep learning about your 575M, enjoy driving her, and do not worry about how much she will be worth in the future. When you have technical questions about her, us old farts will be happy to answer them.

 

Rarity is only part of the story. Manual 575s are very rare and so command a significant premium over both 575 F1s and 550s. However, the fact that 550s outnumber 575 F1s, does not appear to outweigh the effect on value of the premium for a manual car over an "automatic", so 575 F1s presently seem to trail the values of comparable 550s by maybe 20%. This may or may not still be the case in 30-40 years' time, but my bet is that it will.

 

John- Ditto. I love my F1, but....

 

Again that has to do with the nostalgia that a significant number of buyers today can afford. Like I said, Im 31, Im part of a new wave of Ferrari buyer thats emerging, no offense to Taz but in 40 years him, along with the majority of Fchat owners today will be gone while guys like me will be 70 years old, god willing. What im saying is that just bc stick shifts are popular today with older guys or just bc older models are worth hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars doesn't have any bearing on the future values of these machines. Most kids my age grew up not even knowing what a stick shift is or how to use it. Again the F1 system was a significant cost upgrade over a stick in Ferraris back in 2002-2005 bc it was just overall a better experience. Sure values today say otherwise, and yes a 6 speed is fun to drive, but is it worth 4x the price which is the case in the 575 as Ferrari palm beach right now has literally my exact car, well mine is red/tan and there's is red/cream and they're asking $399k and I just paid $100k recently for my 575. Sure thats an awesome car but I also own an SLR mclaren that I paid $220k for and combined the 2 exotic classics I own are less than a stick 575.

So whatever if you're wealthy and money means nothing to you, go ahead pay $400k for a stick, but the F1 are great and rare regardless of what Taz says. Guys like Taz are what give ferrari owners a bad name, they're stuck in their ways and refuse to think outside the box, which is basically bc he's set in his way and wants to throw out his 40 years of experience as his reasoning. He's also probably one of those guys who think stocks are expensive now while I think they're remarkably cheap when you factor in the EPS of the SPY vs the 10 year bond and the SPY yields significantly more than a 10 year bond right now thus making the stock market cheap while tons of guys have said stocks are expensive for years. Various opinions are what make markets. He has his and I have mine. Personally as someone who was a teenager when the 575 came out, all Im saying is that the majority of people who were dreamers dreaming of the 575 like me, those guys have yet to hit their financial strides. They're still relatively young and focused on paying down student debts and buying homes, not many 31 year olds in my position and I truly believe as we all age, the fact only 600 or so of these 575s are in the US will make them very very valuable. Taz of course has to constantly reinforce his belief that 5000+ maranellos were made and that wont be the case, thats what makes a market. I think when 600 or less of a machine in the United States was a dream car for a generation of kids then you're going to have quite the competition to get your hands on one someday in the future.

Hell a 2018 M3 is $86,000, I was just at Braman today waiting on my daily to get an oil change. I spent a little time walking around and yep $86,000 for a new M3, how undervalued are these Ferraris when thats the case? We shall see over time, but no need for taz to get all worked up and offended, his generation dreamt of other cars than mine, the values of those were driven up drastically. I dont know WTF Taz is talking about when he wants to disregard the 300SL they made 3800 of those and they were the dream machine of a generation and well over $1M each today for a coupe or convertible. The 575M they made 2,064 of and it was the dream machine of a generation that Taz has no knowledge of bc I doubt he has a ton of friends my age. That chase scene in Bad Boys 2 was iconic for kids my age at the time. We all had posters of the 575 and Murcielago back then.That group hasn't even entered the first inning of their earning potential. Markets change, whats classic today may not be in the future. What on earth is going to keep a car like a mercedes 280 SL up at its current inflated values in 40 years when nobody who dreamt of it is alive?

 

It's all about perspective. I think your comments about Terry are somewhat contradictory; you say he's a former generation who is set in his ways, but the reality is he's driving an F1 Ferrari - a transmission that didn't exist for the majority of his driving-life and only recently proliferated. I don't think he was an "F1 fanboy" in 1970. He adopted, adapted, and embraced. Sounds atypical for the generalization you painted.

On the other hand, I'm younger than you are, and yes - I really do enjoy F1 in the 599, but my preference is still the stick in the 550. Earlier this year, I also stepped back in time to an "antiquated" manual 996 Turbo to daily drive (which I love it more each and every day). And I'm not alone. My core group of close friends - who range from late 20's to early 40's - unanimously prefer (and own) manual cars from all eras and price points, including 991 Targa GTS, Vintage Speedster, 550 Barchetta, Singer 911, and many, many more. To us, manual sports cars are special - it's timeless, esoteric, engaging. Not to mention non-USA markets where everybody drives manual cars. It's not a dying tradition.

My suggestion is to think high-level about the larger context. Like I said, people have perspective other than your own. In aggregate they can create a paradigm that can impact your reality - even if you fundamentally disagree. The manifestation here, is that demand among willing and able car guys, young and old, overwhelmingly asymmetrically values manual cars versus their automated alternatives - and I reject the theory that the emerging generation of car guys will spell the end of gated shifters. The attention-getters on Instagram don't represent the majority, and frankly, it makes sense that they drive F1/DSG. They're poseurs who buy cars for celebrity and to accessorize their lifestyles. That doesn't speak for all of us.

-Joe

 

I respect your opinion, what I mean to say is the way older guys today love their sticks, guys our age one day will love the early F1 systems. Why would they? Well bc all cars in the future will have F1 systems, and the first one ever put in a V12 Ferrari will be an antique oddity. 30-40 years from now when a small tiny percent of americans even know how to drive a stick, the original F1 system in a V12 Ferrari with an oddity called an immobilizer will be considered a "rare" transmission much like a stick shift today is a rare and desirable transmission. It's only desirable bc the majority of owners today grew up dreaming and driving stick shifts. Fewer and fewer kids today are learning to drive sticks. All I was trying to say all along is trends change and whats considered classic today will more than likely not be a classic in the future. Stick shift cars are amazing and the owners are lucky to have them, but as for the future, fewer and fewer people capable of driving those machines will exist thats all. Most kids born after 1995 will probably never even drive a stick in their lives. Like Wayne Gretzky said, I wanna skate to where the puck is going, not where its been.......

 

I hear you. And I agree that tastes and trends change, but the key characteristic of timeless is the absence of trend. And my opinion is that in the long run, timelessness is value. You’ll always have people who value quirky. That said, a Sportomatic 911 will never be as desirable as 356 Speedster or 2.7 RS, despite its unique transmission. And an FF will never be valuable because it’s a unique wagon Ferrari that can drive up the alps. While both the sportomatic 911 and FF are still super cool and perfect for nuanced purposes - neither is timeless.

I dont’t see 250 GTOs, Mclaren F1’s, or even 550 Maranellos becoming undesirable as the next generation gains traction. Unless we end up only being allowed to drive non-electric cars at country club tracks, that is.

Just because DJ Khalid and Taylor Swift are killing the music game now doesn’t mean they’re going to be classics one day. I think they’ll be largely forgotten sooner than later, just like Jennifer Lopez, 50 Cent, or Lil Wayne. The ‘60s, Motown, Classic Rock, Bob Dylan, Vivaldi... they won’t be replaced or irrelevant. Snoop, on the other hand, not so much.

I agree with you regarding something like older (non-historic) Americana cars and turn of the century cars, but I also think they were trendy and speak to a nostalgic generation who is recapturing something. That is a macro force that is transitioning out-of-demand. But I don’t see manual sports cars that represent history, art, performance to a broad population of enthusiasts as a dying trend - I see a golden era for Cars that will never be replaced, just like the music analogy above. You basically said it yourself by using 300SL’s as a benchmark instead of irrelevant and undesirable antiquated machines.

This is a really good discussion and obviously shows how diverse our opinions are. Thankfully we have millions of amazing cars to choose from. A lid for every pot!

 

Dan- You are really clueless about the big picture on Ferraris, and, it sounds like, life in general. You seem to put people and cars in little boxes only from your own perspective. Hopefully you will grow out of it. Incidentally, you know nothing about me or other Ferrari owners (of all generations) either, although I now know your entire life story, it seems. You do not speak for your generation, just for yourself. Just like I speak only for myself. Implying your generation will feel just like you is very naïve. Just because you keep repeating yourself over and over and over, does not mean your opinion sways anybody. Might be good to remember that.

Incidentally, no future Ferraris and very few other cars will have F1 systems. Read up on the difference between F1 and DCT. The principles of operation are completely different, even if both have paddles. Might help you drive your 575M a little better. Nobody said the 300SL was not a valuable classic, the distinction you obviously missed was that there were two different models with big chassis differences, just like there were two different models of the Maranello (with very small chassis differences), and neither the Gullwing nor roadster reached 575M production quantities, and combined, there were fewer than the total of Maranellos. Not that it makes any difference, just a matter of keeping the facts straight, like 3083 550s instead of 3600.

You asked for the best way to drive your 575M. Did you ever figure it out? I have had mine just short of 10 years, so maybe the combined FChat wisdom can give you a few pointers on the best way to drive her and optimize clutch life. Sometimes a little experience can be useful.

 

Vroom, I like your choice of DD. The Maranellos are pretty practical cars. An F1 eliminates the need to use your left foot, and is definitely easier around traffic.You don't say whether your 993 CS (nice car) is manual or tip, the 550's gearchange requires more effort than the Porsche's (as does a manual 575, I own both).
The SLS is fun and much more modern, and more practical. You get phone connectivity, a decent stereo, and everyday Mercedes practicality (except for those doors). I reviewed various incarnations and found the steering a bit darty and lacking in feel, and the whole package feels more like 'another AMG' than it does a standalone supercar. That 6.2 engine, in its SLS iteration, is almost on a par with a 575's. It's a much easier car to hop into and deal with every day than a Maranello, but less special.
I don't know the US market but the car you are looking at doesn't look cheap. If you are looking for a F1, a HGTC is definitely the ultimate. FHP makes a big difference on the cars I have driven, also.

 

Dan, first off, I don't see the market supporting a 300% premium for a manual 575 over a 575 F1. Maybe 50%, or even as much as 100% in some cases, but that's about tops IMO.

Second, that does not make it a 50-100% better car. Most of that premium is down to comparative rarity, which is one reason why I have a 550 rather than a manual 575 - the 550 may not be the better car, but it is much better value for money IMO.

Third, I am looking at this from a UK perspective, which is obviously relevant, as over here sales of new cars with manual gearboxes still significantly outnumber "automatics" (i.e. two-pedal cars). There is also an age bias, in that most of the cheaper cars, i.e. those younger people can afford, are manual only, so pretty much everybody here grows up "driving stick". Automatics tend to be the larger, more expensive cars that we elderly folk buy (I have had automatics as DDs now for getting on for 30 years).

So it is quite possible that in 30-40 years' time F1 / / DCT / automatic cars will be more highly valued in the USA than manuals, and the reverse in the UK. I don't THINK that will be the case, but it is possible. I do HOPE it is true, however, because then some of the 250 GTOs may come to the UK!

Another school of thought, of course, is that the F1 will be seen as an obsolete idea because DCT is so much better (remember the Betamax vs. VHS and 8-track vs. cassette stories? No, you are probably too young for that), and so 575 F1s will be unsaleable!

 

That right there is exactly what Im trying to say, your last line, the modern dual clutch systems are so great and constantly improving, that an archaic F1 system to my generation those 35 and under, that will be our version of the stick shift that the old men 70+ terry's age dream of in their sticks. I said something similar above, more than likely wont be obsolete, but considered rare and exotic. Either way its whatever, varying opinions are what make markets, Terry is 70 years old or older, he has no clue about anything anyone in my generation cares about so Im done trying to debate him.