348 Considering a 348 to replace Honda s2000 AP1 – advice needed

Given the information you have provided so far, IMO you need to really want the Ferrari you are interested in to consider buying one. I knew which one I wanted for years and lost sleep over it while considering buying one, that's the level of want you need to have to consider buying one. All points made by others in this thread are very valid.

 

Get the 348, you'll love it....I spotted this pic recently when looking for wheels to suit a F355 ( one that I'll buy in the next year or so ).
I've never see a 348 look this good before, just amazing.
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I’m gonna give it to you straight. You might not like what I’m about to say, but I’m only saying it to save you a world of pain.

1. Are there reliable/reputable independent Ferrari mechanics in Serbia? Especially, ones with tons of experience with 348/355’s? If the answer is no, I’d walk from both those cars.

2. I dunno about 348 prices, but a 70k Euro LHD 355 will be at the bottom of the barrel. There’s no such thing as a cheap Ferrari. 9/10 it is cheap due to poor condition, the owner did stupid modifications, or it lacks the upgrades/tasks to get it to min reliability standards. You need to budget another 70k euro and even then, you could still end up with a sub standard 355, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing.

The only people who should be buying cheap 355’s are people who have a ton of knowledge/experience with the car or a highly skilled mechanic and restorer. Do you have resources to rebuild a motor properly if it gets to that point? A Ferrari isn’t a Honda. Hondas are easy by comparison. Older Ferraris have alot of nuances and unless you are willing to dedicate the time to figure out all those nuances, you should refrain from buying a cheap Ferrari.

I’m from Southern CA. I know most of the Honda guys here and pretty much all Honda S2000 specialist shops and they all know me. My buddies/peers are breaking track records with S2000’s here. In short, we know the S2000 in and out.

Having said that, I would never take my 355 to any of them unless it was really basic work. But if it the work was that basic, I’d just do it myself. A car is just a car to a certain point. Unless your Honda buddy has a ton of Ferraris lined up for maintenance, he’s not going to take the time to learn all the little nuances of the 348/355 and knowing those nuances could be the difference of saving you from costly repairs down the line.




The Honda S2000 imo, is Honda’s best car. I rate it above the NSX. The NSX is more exotic and higher quality, but unless it’s an ultra rare NSX like an NSX-R or S-Zero, the Honda S2000 is much more fun. I’ve had an NSX and share a track toy S2000 with a buddy.

The 348 is arguably one of Ferraris worst cars. How you came to the conclusion the 348 was the ideal replacement for the S2000 is beyond me. You need to do more research. The NSX is a better car than the 348. Easier maintenance. That’s really the logical next step for you. If you want excitement, the F355 is it between the three. Just because the 348 looks close to a 355 doesn’t mean the cars are anywhere close in driving experience. A million changes were made on the 355 from the 348. Problem is, the 348 has the same level of headache as a 355.

Very few people have the opportunity to experience a 355 at it’s peak performance as the car is plagued with issues, which needs to be addressed just to get to a base line experience. You’re certainly not going to get it from a cheap 355 these days. It’s cheap for a reason. Maintenance is deferred and exterior and interior condition is most likely poor taking away from the exotic experience.


What’s going to end up happening is disappointment. You might never get the 355 to peak performance or condition because you budgeted too low or the nuances to restore the car properly are too overwhelming. You’ll end up selling the 355 thinking it was a POS this whole time, when the reality is you bought a POS.

A well running S2000 is a pretty damn good car. One of the best NA cars ever made. It does more things right than wrong. A true driver’s car. The bar is high imo in terms of driving experience. The only thing the 355 has over the S2000 is looks, a more powerful F1 sounding engine, and a nostalgic gated gearbox. S2000’s are nice looking cars, but I don’t stare at them for long. S2000 engine is great is perfectly matched for the size of the car, but it can feel like it lacks brute power. It’s a great sounding car, but does not have the F1 sound of a Ferrari engine. S2000 gearbox is perfect performance-wise, but it isn’t a visually or mechanically cool as the 355 gated shifter. The 355 does just enough, but with unique style and the style in which it does it makes you forget about outright performance. This is the true essence of the Ferrari 355. If you are paying close attention to what I’m saying, you’ll realize as much of a 355 fan boy I am, even I hesitate to say the 355 is better than an S2000. It’s only better if you value the things I mentioned above.

Japanese cars are minimalist cars. They only have what you need to drive moderately comfortably. Excesses are discarded, hence the cars feel light and agile and as Michaelz mentioned… “drives like a glove.” 355’s are generally on the heavier side as it has some “luxuries” and more “exotic” detailed exterior design. It also a steel chassis vs. aluminum. Your best bet would be to get the lightest 355 you can find, which is a 2.7 pre-airbag Berlinetta with carbon seats. Even then, I still think you will feel the driving performance of a 355 is a step down from the S2000 due to agility. A 355 is agile, but the S2000 is on a whole other level.


The only way the F355 is going to convincingly top an S2000 is if you improve suspension, brakes, steering and lighten the car like a mad man. This requires $$$ and even then I think it’s a maybe. So if a 355 can barely match the S2000, good luck with a 348. Just being real.


As mentioned earlier, the 355 is better than the S2000 only when considering abstracts. Looks, sound, smell, feel of gated shifter etcc. Objectively speaking, although the 355 engine is much more powerful… because the car is heavier, the S2000 feels more capable when you drive it at the limit. It’s a better balanced car. However, personally, I feel I can build a 355 close enough to where I can eventually forget about the S2000 as it will check every box I need in a sports car. I’m not sure I’ve mentioned this before, but I do use the S2000 as a benchmark for my 355 build. I’m surrounded by so many S2000 fan bois, I consider it a duty to make my 355 better . One day, they’re gonna know.



My Advice:

1. Consider an NSX instead if you want to transition to something more “exotic” than the S2000, while keeping maintenance costs low.

2. Find a Ferrari independent if you want to get into a 348/355.

3. Budget double what you’re budgeting for a 355. Getting the cheapest 355 is only going to buy you a world of pain.

4. If you just want to get into a Ferrari, manual 360 or converted manual F430 is going to give you the least amount of headache. They will feel and look exotic. Less nuances than 348/355. Less restoration knowledge. Easier to restore to a decent visual standard worthy of an exotic car.

 

The 348 around 93/94 the run out modal is one I chose over over a 355 .
I wanted a spider to circumnavigate Italy next summer . Having used my boxster over the” passes “ ( Swiss alps ) last year , never having had a cab we were hooked .
Not really that bothered about outright speed or performance stats , once you pass 60 yr olds life slows down driving wise .
I all ready have a 208 GT4 with a mere 160 Hp and have done a euro trip in that …poor AC , hard top etc .

Dived deep into which F car proper cab or “ spider “.
Had , endured a 360 F1 when they came out ….never gelled, it felt like was a passenger bcz the electrotwackery was doing all the work .Honestly the GT 4 gives back so much driving experience than the 360 .

Took a deep dive of re search into the 348 vs 355 Spiders .
Here’s what I concluded.

1- didn’t want the dreadful 355 ( Merc derived ) electro hydraulic hood + seat potentiometers.= $$$$ to fix

2- didn’t want the 5 valve brass valve seat s or any legacy of a refurb ….someone’s opened it up .The 355 was the cinqvalvo test mule . Ferrari perfected it by 1999 360 launch .

3 didn’t want the silly switchable dampers = more $$$ to replace .

4 didn’t want the oil / cooling water gear box heat exchanger - water in the sump is bad news =mega $$$ ……348s are air radiators .

5 didn’t want the motronic 5.2 ( a few early 355# are the preferred 2.7 ) bcz they don’t do bank shut down like the 2.7 s they stop the spark in the affected cylinder(s) but crucially still keep the fuel running unlike the 2.7 s .This means if a cylinder shuts excess fuel enters the manifold, burns and it overheats leading to crack manifolds / headers . It’s a case you can count on your fingers how many arn’t effected . Not “ if “ but “ when “ with cracked 355 headers .

6 - if the headers ( quite common replaced with aftermarket ) on 355# don’t crack then the CATs can set on fire by the same excess fuel map by a faulty 355s motronic 5.2 going bad - there are dash lights …if the bulbs work ! And the driver actually slows down .

The later 94 348 s had the rear suspension geo changed , copied across to the 355 to cure the early modal ( journalist criticising) snappy handling and the track widened. Also gear ratios shortened to give them a bit more real world pep driving .

EU spec 348 with 320 Hp vs 375 / 380 Hp for a 355 is plenty in a spider for a 60 + yr old to cruise around Italy .
I know with the manual hood it will work when called for .The headers won’t crack en route and thing isn’t going to set on fire parked up outside the Vatican .

Thing is with old / retro cars it’s the ongoing maintenance legacy of what was the dogs wedding tackle , the 355 uplift in performance- when the thing was launched .

7 - almost forgot I prefer analog…partly the improvement feel of a 77 GT 4 over a 2001 360 M F1 …..the 348 hasn’t got PAS .
So without doubt the better steering feel over the power assistance of the 355 , and nothing to go wrong , no PAS fluid to leak etc .

Style
Subjective obviously. Buts there’s something about the stakes , the whole 80 Miami vice scene. I think the 348 coming back retro classic wise . Image Unavailable, Please Login

The little blue car is a “ bugeye “ sprite ……46 Hp twin SU carbs but a hoot to drive . You don’t need a lot of Hp to have fun .
It’s better to drive a “ slow car fast than a fast car slow “ ……it just take a few decades to arrive at this point .You can’t tell guys they need to figure it out themselves.

 

@Toorshia

An AP1 S2000 vs AP2 S2000 is 80-90% identical. The same can’t be said for 348 vs. 355. They are 2 different cars. It’s more like a Honda Del Sol vs S2000. And yes, the Del Sol did come with a manual steering rack in some cases.


If you just wanted a Ferrari, I’d say get whatever floats your boat. Some people prefer the Del Sol over the S2000 . But since you phrased it as “S2000 replacement” that’s a different story. I understand where you’re coming from because I’m familiar with the S2000 and what it’s all about. You bought an S2000 because of its superior engine and gearbox. When you’re driving straight, all you will be feeling is the engine and gearbox. Ferraris are about engine first and foremost. Enzo famously said, “you buy the engine, the car is free.”


@INTMD8 just dyno’d his 2.7 355 at 373 rwhp with a bolt-on custom exhaust and stock ECU, which proves once you remove the cats from the exhaust system and you optimize the header the design, you can extract the engine’s true hp potential.

What kind of power is an S2000 making with J’s Racing/Spoon headers and decatted exhaust and stock ECU? Not a whole lot different from what it was already making.


Once you factor that in, the HP/L output between the S2000 and F355 isn’t all that much different, only the 355 has 2 4 cylinder blocks back there. Make no mistake, the 355 engine is THE elite NA engine of the 90’s. The gearbox is no slouch either. High revving NA engine scream + precise gearbox is what makes the F355 the closer comparable imo. The s2000 has PAS as well. Would you choose a Del Sol over an S2000 just because it has a manual rack?


All these cars are slow by modern standards, hence you need not worry about the challenge and thrill of driving a slow car fast. Just know when the Ferrari 355 was released, it was regarded as the fastest road-going Ferrari. That should at least give you something to work with if you’re going back to old Ferraris.



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I've driven a stock s2000 and have an f355. On modern rubber there is no way a stock s2000 stays with a 355 on anything, including autox. I've competed against them, they're in a different class. Last autox I did I finished 2nd in my class, the two s2000s that were there were 1.5 to 2 seconds slower on the same course. That's a large difference in autox, and that's the only type of course an s2000 would have a chance. If your 355 is running properly and can't soundly beat a stock s2000 you need to work on your driving, not the car... Period road tests put the s2000 roughly 3 seconds a lap slower at tsukaba, that with the s2000 on more modern tires. It's not remotely close.

That said it's a very different experience, after driving an s2000 I never really had the urge to buy one. After driving the f355 I knew I would never sell it. There are a bunch of reasons for that but more due to my internal biases and wants than the cars themselves. S2000 is a very good car, f355 is an all time great.

 

Amusing read, Shineken.

 

348 vs s2000. I don’t get it, not even by a little. Sure a a s2000 is a great car but compared to a sorted and maintained 348? Can’t wrap my head around the comparison, there is none in my mind.
Unless the 348 was a basket case, that could be too much for any enthusiast. Not being able to do your own maintenance etc might be an issue. S2000 wins there, anybody can work on that.

 

This post must be a joke, I have driven those rice burning little cars that wind high rpm and go absolutely no where. Can't compare, must be a joke or someone who has absolutely no knowledge of any car.

 

I’ve tried to re-collect if I’ve ever driven a bone-stock S2000. I don’t think I have. However, I’ve driven S2000’s with basic/typical bolt-on mods. I’m talking maybe $15-$20k worth of mods and they are very capable cars. Headers, intake, exhaust, adjustable dampers, light-weights wheels, brakes… etc… These are typically the S2000’s at the track. If the guy has a bone stock S2000 at the track, he probably just bought it and new to the car. Challenge wheels and Capristo muffler is already $9-10k on a 355.


Is your 355 bone-stock? Or do you at least have straight pipes, exhaust, and challenge wheels?


S2000’s don’t take much to open up. Perhaps it’s a bit muted stock. It doesn’t even have adjustable dampers. Stock tire sizes are not ideal on S2000 regardless if modern or not. They need to be running 255’s all around. 355 stock tire sizes are already sized correctly or close.



Since you brought up Tsukuba Circuit, let’s pull up some vids for comparison. I found 2 reliable in period vids of somewhat stock 355’s.

The first is a pre-airbag 2.7 Berlinetta with a Tubi muffler. Maybe it has straight pipes, maybe it doesn’t, but we all know how heavy a stock muffler is. Clocked 1’07”93.

A bone-stock S2000 Type-S, which is equivalent to a s2000 CR does Tsukuba in roughly mid 1’08’s.





Ok. Let’s get a bit more apples to apples. Here’s another 2.7 355 B, but with after-market buckets, exhaust, probably straight pipes, driven by an elite driver. Clocks 1’05”73.





Anyone, please feel free to pull up any vids of the 355 on Tsukuba Circuit if you think a stock or close to stock 355 does better times. For reference, a stock 458 does Tsukuba in roughly 1’03”.




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All one needs to do is search Youtube “S2000 TC2000” and you’ll find a ton of S2000’s with basic bolt-on mods. Most even still have the stock ECU.

Here’s a Type-S S2000 with proper tires on it.




Here’s another S2000 with proper tires.






Now a RSD 355 challenge car (modded) is roughly 1’02” on Tsukuba Circuit. A similarly modded S2000 is roughly the same. However, super modded S2000’s with massive aero and every mod you can think of have actually broken the 1 min mark. A 355 has yet to do so.


Perhaps it’s just about $$$ and how much you’re willing to spend. My point is it doesn’t take much to make an S2000 solid, whereas you would be spending significantly more on a 355.


S2000 is the underpowered car when comparing the two. It’s the S2000 driver who needs to step up his game to beat the 355, not the other way around.

 

Here’s an S2000 comparable to a 355 challenge in terms of track mods.




Footage and clocks don’t lie. There are a hundred examples of this.

 

It’s clear you know very little about cars. It’s time for a reality check.

 

Here’s another basic AP1 S2000. The mods are listed in the description. Proper tires sizes. 1’04”92




Here’s a “stock looking” S2000 with a just a GT wing for aero hitting 1’00”. Pro driver though.







I’m literally just going thru these vids for the first time randomly. There’s countless vids.

 

When I ran autox I had h&r springs and the rest stock except tires. The best I did was in the rain when I won my class and finished 5th overall (raw), the 4 faster cars were 3 built race cars (not street legal) and a modified WRX. I was running stock rims, exhaust and Continental extreme contact sport DW's. The only mod was the springs. There was only one s2000 in that event some 5 seconds slower and I don't know if it was representative. I didn't see what tires, which also can make a huge difference. The earlier comparison was in the dry with two s2000s so more representative. I was running used Hoosier r6 tires on challenge rims but they were also running dot slicks (didn't check which, most ran a6s which are faster but I was using my track tires as autox wasn't my main focus). So they may have had a tire advantage. Scca doesn't allow much in terms of modifications without going up in class and our cars were in their base classes, so mods were limited. Tires open to anything dot, though, which I hated as I didn't want to buy a6s just to be competitive, which is the only way to win (except in the rain). I think they've since added a street tire class with 200 tw limit which is much more interesting to me.

Tsukaba, again, not much straight so best case scenario for the s2000. It's 1.5-3 seconds slower even with what you posted, the 458 only being 2 seconds faster than a 355 shows how little power matters there. I picked tsukaba for that reason, it's best case for the s2000. Contrast that with the nurburgring where an ap1 s2000 ran 8:39. Some 26 seconds slower than a 355. On older tech tires (which matter a lot). A stock carrera GT was just retested at the ring with modern tires and was 20 seconds faster than in period, so again even with that advantage an s2000 is significantly slower. Any recent tsukaba videos will be invalid due to tire technology advances unless you also have a recent 355 comparison. Period tests put the s2000 significantly slower.

If you want to talk modified cars it's a different ball of wax, but don't bring cost into it, ANY Ferrari will lose that comparison. Nobody buys a Ferrari for cheap performance, they buy a Honda (or Vette). If you want bang for the buck, stay FAR away from anything Ferrari (or Italian for that matter). To wit, in that dry event I was 2nd to a vette on a6s, and I'm sure he had a lot less money in it. He was 2 seconds faster than I was, so it wasn't close. That's the real cheap performance if you want numbers, but it's not as much fun (had one and driven a bunch of those, too). If you're after performance, a new z06 will absolutely obliterate a 355 (and any road legal s2000) for 355 money.

To OP, you need to drive a 348 and get a feel for it. Then decide. If it doesn't make you highly with delight, stick to the s2000 {or try a 355).

 

I’m not sure raw speed is what makes a 348/355 so special or better than a s2000. Lots of way cheaper cars are faster. That’s not why I sold my 911 for a 348, it’s everything else. Way way cooler and more fun, just Imhop. I love staring at the Ferrari in the garage.

 

No Ferrari will ever win a performance for dollar competition. That's not the point of them. My contention was with any assertion that an s2000 is in the same league performance wise. It's not. They're very good cars but a different tier of performance.

 

What do the guys on the Honda forums think? Have you asked them?

Reality check here.

You are on a Ferrari site. I've just read through the responses and they are not exactly ringing endorsements of a switch from a mass produced Japanese car to a low production run Ferrari.

I have never owned an S2000, never even ridden in one, but I have a driven/ridden a 308, 348, 355, 360, 430 CS, 550 and 575 along of course with a Dino. If I was thinking high revving Ferrari that won't break the bank I'd go 360, not 348. Find a six speed, pay the extra money and get a car that's modern-ish to drive. I have had considerable seat time in a highly modded Miata which was a blast, but not really what I like to drive.

There are lots of knowledgeable folks here giving you sound advice. Find a car from a reputable dealer, find a mechanic with experience in your area before you buy, DRIVE ONE of each car you'd consider. And don't expect to do a lot of modding to a Ferrari, whichever model you pick.

I do agree with the one prevailing sentiment. Drive one, if it doesn't fill you with delight, don't buy one.

D

 

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997.2 still have a 75 911s that sits next to the 348. 348s and 355s sure are good looking cars.

 

As expected !

S2000 is a 2800 pound car with 200 rear wheel HP, add 200 pound driver:: 3000/200 = 15
F355 is a 3250 pound car with 320 rear wheel HP, add 200 pound driver:: 3450/320 = 10.8