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Considering a 430 Scuderia. Need advice.

Discussion in '360/430' started by RennSport93, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
    Pittsburgh
    Full Name:
    Joe Bellisario
    Hey guys and gals!
    As my 360 gets closer to completion after it's precat failure, I've kind of decided I'm over the car and will more than likely be looking to sell it as soon as it's done for something new. I loved it,but it bummed me out a lot with this last failure and I really just want it out of my sight. Seeing that works been going very well lately I thought I might spring for a scud. I would be looking for an example with about 10,000-15,000 miles with all the carbon goodies. I have a few questions though.

    1. Is it prone to any lengthy repairs that will bum me out even more?
    2.is the f1 box on these cars really as good as everyone says? I have driven 360 F1,355 F1,612 F1, and to a lesser extent a regular 430 with F1 and they all were very clunky and sorta slow for my liking(though the 430 was the best,but still not quite there). My 360 is a stick and I really love that about it. Despite my stick love,I really think the scuderia is the car for me(how awesome would a manual scud be though?)
    3.How's maintenence?
    4.Assuming I don't track the car,I should really never need to replace the carbon rotors?
    5.What should I expect to spend on a car with 10-15k in miles with all the carbon? I would like to pull the trigger come winter time when prices are usually at their softest.
    6. Would anyone here pick a 997.2 GT3 RS over a scud?

    Thank you for reading!
     
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  3. glob1971

    glob1971 Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2011
    430
    Czech Republic
    Hello,

    1) yes very reliable but (as always) depends how car was driven and maintained.
    2) F1 much quicker, perfect IMO.
    3) Same as F430, relatively easy compared to older cars.
    4) You shouldn't have to replace them.
    5) Around $ 200.000 for a good spec car in perfect condition.
    6) absolutely not.
     
  4. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
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    Joe Bellisario
    I'm glad to hear this,thanks for weighing in!
     
  5. Mikael-F360

    Mikael-F360 Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2017
    686
    Finland
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    Mikael E.
    These I can answer:

    5) Pay the sum you are comfortable with. But it's around 200k.
    6) If you love engineering, then yes! If you want the ride of your life, then no.

    Asking in this forum that "Do you like Ferraris more?" is like asking people in a strip club that if they like naked ladies.
     
    JohnsScud168 likes this.
  6. koop

    koop Formula Junior
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    Apr 30, 2011
    811
    #5 koop, Jul 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    1. Scud is probably the most reliable of all the F1 gen cars. I know a couple guys with 20k+ miles and no major repairs. There's a guy on youtube who daily drives his scud and talks about how reliable it has been: https://www.youtube.com/user/DailyDrivenExotics

    2. Scud transmission is hands down the best single clutch I've ever driven, but it still has some small quirks. Engagement from stand still is smooth and predictable but driving slowly in stop/go type of traffic can be jerky and slow on occasion, especially if you leave it in auto. When conditions are right (above a certain RPM & throttle), the shifts are lightening fast with a satisfying "kick".

    3.Typical of any ferrari. Annual maintenance is just fluids. Dealers naturally charge a premium for this service.

    4. No unless you damage them.

    5. My crystal ball is just as good as yours :)

    6. I owned a 997.2 GT3RS prior to my scud. Though I would consider adding another GT3RS in the future, I would never trade my scud for one. The RS was great on the track but I never really enjoyed it as a street car. Heavy clutch, notchy shifter and too much work to rev match on the street due to the lightweight flywheel. The one thing I do miss about it was the steering response/feedback. This is the only area where I think the scud is lacking.
     
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  8. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    Apr 4, 2010
    3,115
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    Jes
    I have a Scud, a gated 360, and a 612 F1 (later 2007 HGTC). The Scud would tire you more on long drives than your 360, and although the F1 is fine, I don't find the 612 F1 in any way clunky as you describe. Based on your description, I think you might find the F1 in the Scud harsh at the fastest shift times - somewhat violent, which is what many seem to love. I would make sure to drive both a Scud and a 458 - maybe a 458 will suit you better - completely different transmission characteristic with the DCT.
     
  9. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
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    Joe Bellisario
    5) I thought that was the case,should i be suspect of the ones in The 175-185 region?
    6)I figure we all just liked fast cars,I understand there would be a preference for Ferrari here,but you gotta figure more than a couple people love both.
     
  10. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
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    Joe Bellisario
    1)Very good to hear,i plan on daily driving and rack up about 2500 miles a year(pgh only really allows for 4-5 months of driving)

    2) This is what I keep hearing,I'm pretty good about not bothering driving my sports cars in traffic,but it does happen though. The slow part is what bothers me. I can't stand a dimwitted and slow gear box,but if it is otherwise as good as everyone says,I think I could live with it.

    3.What does a major service include on these cars?

    4.gonna hope to not do that.

    5. True,they could rise or fall substantially depending on many factors.

    6. I've heard similar things, I'm after the rawest driving experience in the 200k or less segment,so I thought it was basically the only other option. I think a test drive of both would answer my questions.
     
  11. Rcktrod

    Rcktrod F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2010
    3,946
    USA
    The Scud is amazing and the cost will depend on the color, does it have a factory stripe or not and how many miles are on the car.
     
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  13. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
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    Joe Bellisario
    The cars I drove seemed rather odd to drive,maybe I didn't spend enough time with them to properly learn how to drive them. I spent about 1-200 miles in each throughout the years of driving them for my dad and uncle. Maybe I just needed more consistant time. To be honest,not a huge fan of the regular 458 for visual reasons.
     
  14. koop

    koop Formula Junior
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    Apr 30, 2011
    811
    Other than the manual shifter, I would not consider the gt3rs a raw car.

    There are two shifting programs in the scud. Shifts are slower in the normal mode. It switches to fast shifting only when throttle & rpms are above a certain range. In this fast (f1) mode, the shifts feel even faster than 458 dct
     
  15. Thrasher

    Thrasher Formula Junior

    May 26, 2012
    281
    London UK
    #12 Thrasher, Jul 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
    I'd pick up a 997.2 GT3RS with ceramics over a Scud any day (and I currently own a Strad, my2nd one)

    Why? Because it laps around a Strads and Scuds all day long on track, and the Scud doesn't sound as good as a Strad...so might as well have the most efficient car ;)
    That's my experience at Silvertsone, Le Mans Bugatti and Spa Francorchamps talking...no match to Porsches

    Note: when came the time to purchase my current Strad, the choice was between a Strad and a 997.2 GT3RS...never a Scud. Ended up with the Strad purely because it was the first perfect car I saw, had it been the Porsche I would today run in a RS.
    Also for your info, mine is almost daily driven in Central London, so not just a pure wkend toy or track toy.
     
  16. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
    Pittsburgh
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    Joe Bellisario
    Glad to hear,I'm really excited,my uncles dealership has actually contacted an owner with one that has been trying to sell,he says he'll let me drive it this weekend or so,hopefully it answers all my questions. Thank you for weighing in,I wish I had your experience with both. I did always view the gt3 rs as the only car to compare the scud with,would you say they are worlds apart(besides motor placement)?
     
  17. RennSport93

    RennSport93 Karting

    Mar 7, 2016
    201
    Pittsburgh
    Full Name:
    Joe Bellisario
    This is what I've always heard. When I was 18 I got an old 930 turbo for a daily(in hind sight, I think my dad was trying to kill me and my brother),my point being,I've always had the same soft spot for 911 as i do for Ferrari's. I truly don't think of one before the other. Hence my name on here:)

    Have strad's moved substantially up market from scuds? I always loved how they looked,but never had the honor of driving one. What pulled you away from scuds? I also find it very interesting that 2 people in this thread have differing views on the Rs's streetability. Not saying anyones wrong(have never driven one),just think it maybe a very polarizing experience depending on the drivers preferences.. Once again,will need to test drive to see.

    On a side note,I'm very jealous o your experiences on the various GP circuits(and Le mans!) Thank you for commenting!
     
  18. Thrasher

    Thrasher Formula Junior

    May 26, 2012
    281
    London UK
    #15 Thrasher, Jul 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
    @RennSport93 - I also ran a 997.1GT3RS for a couple years in 2008/2009 and it was a brilliant car: both on track, faster than anything else I had before (Modena, Strad, 993 turboS, 964RS) BUT also an amazing daily car in Central London and on my numerous trips surfing and snowboarding: yes you can fit a roofrack on the 997 GT3RS and drive up to the beaches of SW France or the Alps without any issues.

    Note on streetability: yes the RS munches its front plastic black lip on every speedbump...but they are so cheap, buy a bunch of Cup ones in advance, roughly $200 a piece from Brombacher www.fvd.net, and you can change them yourself in 10min. The Strad/Scud are much more sensitive to speedbumps and potholes than RSs (that's why you should consider ball joints/tie rods as maintenance items on them...no issue on Porsches)
    As for clutch...well F1 is clunky in town (yes both are) and RS has a single flywheel (no you don't stall unless you never drove a stick before) so yes maybe after 2hrs stuck in traffic your calf starts getting tired.
    my experience: close to 20kmiles with RS as a daily, close to 25kmiles with Stradales also daily...and 15kmiles in 964RS (that was proper work parallel parking: no power steering, that's a man car, even though my wife drove it too)

    Why I never considered a Scud over a Strad: while it's faster (no doubt) it doesn't scream as much as a Strad (nor does a Superleggera from Lambo by the way), nor does it feel (behind the wheel and confort) as raw as a Strad. Strad feels like a go-kart with a light body shell/interior...Scud is a lot a lot a lot more civilised.

    That's IMO

    And again, 997.2GT3RSs are faster around the track than Scuds...but yes RSs do not scream as a Strad/Scud, even though they rpm quite high as well.

    For me the choice still is Strad vs. 997.2GT3RS (not for the same things)...but the Scud is neither one or the other, and I like black or white (Scud is grey) - if that makes sense



    https://www.challenge-stradale.com/136234.html my old one
    https://www.challenge-stradale.com/133631.html my current
     
  19. koop

    koop Formula Junior
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    Apr 30, 2011
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    #16 koop, Jul 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
    Each of these cars excels in certain areas, but I feel that the scud is a nice middle ground. The CS no doubt is the prettiest and rawest, but lacks power. The shifting is also painfully slow. The 997.2 RS is probably the most track capable and most involving (simply because of the third pedal), but also the most dull in terms of looks and sound. I also felt the lack of torque made it less enjoyable as a street car. The scud on the other hand has enough power/torque to keep up with many modern sports cars yet it's still rawer than a 458/speciale. It looks good, shifts fast and also can sound as great (if not better) than any CS once you add a simple s-line exhaust. Also, from what I've heard and read, the scud is far more reliable than a CS. Another thing to consider is seat ergonomics. I found the RS bucket seats to be extremely lacking in lower back support and I could not drive for more than a couple hours. The scud seats are surprisingly comfortable.

    If you're not going to track the cars, the decision really comes down to whether or not you need a third pedal. I'm a big porsche guy and have owned many 911s (and still do), but a pcar is never going to feel as special as a ferrari. If you do a search, you'll find many threads comparing the RS/scud with varying opinions. I don't think there's any wrong decision. In my perfect garage, I'd probably own a 4.0 RS, scud, CS and speciale.
     
  20. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    A 997.2 GT3 RS is just the slower version of a 991.1 GT3 RS and this car is again just the slower version of the 991.2 GT3 RS. Yes, I'm not a big fan of Porsche's model policy. And the too narrow front axle from the 997 product line is also annoying, not really a great thing.

    The Scud is a car with its own and unique character.
     
  21. Welikethetrack

    Dec 9, 2015
    21
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    Full Name:
    Leo Haury
    I bought a red scud w/ 15k miles 3 months ago after looking and driving many gt3/gt3 rs's/458's....I was strictly a manual person before I bought this car...and I probably would never buy a dual clutch. My dad had a 997 gt3 as well so I have driven that one quite a bit. All awesome cars, but I have an manual M4 (sports car), I drove a few 458's first to purchase (better sports car) then some gt3's (sports cars), and I really loved them all but something was missing, I already have a sports car. Then I drove the scuderia.....

    The Scuderia is a full blown RACE CAR!!!! if u closed ur eyes (don't do that) as your flooring it down the road, you would SWEAR you are in Formula 1 car. The noises, the feel, the speed, everything is SO EXHILERATING! I have never felt that way in any other car.

    It is the most special car I have ever driven.

    I mean I could tell you about the bolt action 50 cal rifle blasting shifts that shift faster than the 458 on one clutch and make the car feel like ur in Le Mans, or the Banshee whaling scream from 4k-8500, or the noise the rocks make as they are hitting the floor pan...but it's something that subjectively needs to be experienced to be appreciated. A Ferrari 430 makes my M4 still feel fine, the 458's and gt3's make it feel inferior...the scuderia makes it feel like a Cadillac :eek:

    I can't help but think...Ferrari only made 1 car with a lightning single clutch F1 gearbox (60 ms shift time) that gives it such character, dual clutch is just so uneventful relative and even the enzo and CS shift kinda slow :/ (150ms)! Even if it was a manual, it just wouldnt be the same....it is a Scuderia :) I think you should go drive one
     
  22. Mikael-F360

    Mikael-F360 Formula Junior

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    #19 Mikael-F360, Jul 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
    ^ Great description of the experience. Thanks for sharing. Would drive a Scud if there is one in my country... not sure about that :-\

    Edit: There are official government provided statistics available on all makes and models that are in road use @Finland. Checked that there are two 430 Scuderias here. Haha. Maybe I need to fix this number to "3".
     
  23. koop

    koop Formula Junior
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    #20 koop, Jul 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  24. Manda racing

    Manda racing Formula 3
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    I know a guy who had his Scud in the shop for lengthy repairs to the F1 actuator (sp?) which isn't the same as a 430 $15k repair. IIRC

    I'd still like to buy his car though.
     
  25. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    Quite obviously: you drive the Scud, you feel the Scud and you understand the Scud.
     
  26. koop

    koop Formula Junior
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    I think thats a rare occurrence and the risk can be reduced by changing the gearbox fluid regularly. There are also shops that can rebuild the actuator for a fraction of the cost.

    The GT3RS is also not without its own issues:

    https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/780410-destructive-torsional-harmonics-or-how-to-keep-your-cam-bolts-from-backing-out.html

    https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/592328-catastrophic-coolant-hose-coupling-failure-registry.html
     
  27. midengine

    midengine Karting

    May 7, 2007
    245
    So true. I know as I purchased a Scud 3 months ago coming from a 458.
     
  28. monkiboy48

    monkiboy48 Rookie

    Feb 22, 2012
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    Chad
    I can echo the same thoughts on the Scud. I came from an e90 m3 and then a 991 gt3. The Scud is in an entirely different league in terms of being special and raw. The 991 gt3 is the cherry blossom queen (Japanese princess in Hawaii) and the Scud is the porn star! You can live with the princess everyday and is the girl you marry. The Scud is the one night fling that you can't get out of your mind the following morning. Again, depends on what experience you want but the ultimate dream is to have both. The Scud for the wild night and then go home to the gt3.

    I need to reemphasize the shifts. They are not seamless like a dct, they have an emotion to it like a race sequential manual. I swear, the shifts are so fast the shift time is instantaneous! They feel faster than a dct.

    Also, super fast 2 gearbox is also in the 599 gto. Only the Scud and GTO have this super fast 2 gearbox.
     

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