Conversions to convertibles:comment on problems | FerrariChat

Conversions to convertibles:comment on problems

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by bitzman, Sep 12, 2009.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Feb 15, 2008
    3,287
    Ontario, CA
    Full Name:
    wallace wyss
    I am writing an article on those "cut" cars that were usually 365GT4, 400, 4001 or 412. I have seen the Straman ones which seem the highest in quality and driven the Sheldon Brooks one out of Santa Monica which was pretty tight. But I have seen some European-cut ones which seem more awkwardly cut, particularly in regards to the use of a hard boot lid. I wonder if any of these cars had any structural reinforcements to the chassis or cowl to make up for the loss of rigidity when the roof was cut off. If you own a "cut" car of this type and want to praise it or lambaste how it was done, please let me know. I also saw a cut 365GTC/4 done by Claudio Zampolli and though his work was excellent, it seemed to look less like a GTC/4 without the roof. I would welcome comments on this conversion to.

    Also I heard that Ferrari made two of them out of the 400 body style, one which had a carbon fiber body. Was the other still steel? And one was sold, was that the carbon fiber or the other one? It is really amazing that in Europe they can sell prototypes where here that is supposed to be against the law, prototypes not conforming to various emissions and safety laws.
     
  2. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2006
    899
    Hi

    There was a cut 400 here that I did some work on many years ago. I am sorry that I can't provide too much as far as details on the car. I don't know who did the conversion. The car was done pretty well as far as cosmetic appearance was concerned. The top was fitted well and the windshield header was nicely finished. I seem to remember thinking that the shape of the top looked a bit awkward. I think it was because the rear window was fairly small.

    This car had a welded up steel stiffener frame bolted to the frame of the car. It hung below the original frame so it reduced the already marginal ground clearance of the car. It was tough going at many driveways and all but the most gentle of speed bumps. I had to rebuild the gearbox (automatic) on the car so I had to remove the stiffener frame. Most of the attachment bolts were simply into drilled and tapped holes in the original frame. Many of these holes had very poorly formed threads in them. The chassis tubes had walls about 1/8" thick, which is pretty strong for tubing, but it doesn't give much of a thread. I really worked at getting some clean, strong threads at the attachment points. Then came the problem of lifting this enormous and very heavy stiffener into place and getting it bolted down. Of course the car was pretty flexible and the holes weren't lining up, so it was necessary to jack the car at various places to get all the bolts in. I suspect that one of the reasons that many of the mounting hole threads were damaged at the beginning was that the bolts were not properly started and were driven in cross threaded. All in all, it was not fun.
     
  3. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    i own three conversions, all 400i. one has a square tube frame nightmare. must weigh 3-400 lbs. the automatic filter cannot be serviced unless the tube frame is removed. i did not look at the other two cars with an eye as to structure enhancement. All three look very nice. i have driven all as well as an uncut version and really cannot tell a difference but i did not push. there are differences in tops and finish. sealing is not really weather proof. one has no sun visors, lot of other small differences
     
  4. wmjim

    wmjim Rookie

    Aug 22, 2006
    4
    South Dakota
    Full Name:
    Jim Kreber
    #4 wmjim, Sep 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Untill a while ago I owned a black C/4 converted by Claudio. I owned it for 4 years, and really didn't want to sell it. A previous owner located it, and wanted it back badly. The chassis was sufficiently stiff, and the door gaps were always right - on. It looked just as good with the top up, as well as down (shorter back seat vs. 400). New trunk lid also well done.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2004
    1,231
    That is a beauty.

    Aidan
     
  6. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 21, 2006
    34,940
    North Tay-has
    Full Name:
    Kurt
    #6 willrace, Sep 24, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
    WMJIM -
    Wow - That is simply S T U N N I N G ! ! !
    How many of THOSE were done, I wonder?
    Any more pics?
     
  7. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2007
    5,517
    Metro Detroit/Encino
    Full Name:
    Steven
    I believe Chinetti did two; C/4 spyders were never officially made by the factory. The last one that I knew of was a Larry Cammisa's shop in Burlingame, CA when I worked there almost 12 years ago. It was black too.
     
  8. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Feb 15, 2008
    3,287
    Ontario, CA
    Full Name:
    wallace wyss
    You really have to be a reader of very obscure articles to know this but I read in the paper in Royal Oak, Michigan, of two accidents at a railroad crossing years apart where the car both times was a Pontiac convertible and some part of the chassis was the lowest point and both cars were at speed when the track caught them and stopped them dead. So I am wary of any car that has something added that is below where the original automaker had bits because of this double accident with the Pontiacs--it may be a very sudden stop for you. That's why I am wary of the aftermarket conversions--at least automakers test their convertibles but whose to say the conversion shops do. I doubt if the owner of the car will let them thrash his car, but a car has to be thrashed before it can be deemed safe. I'd have to measure the car full up (full load of gas, full of passengers) and measure the ground clearance against the stock coupe before I'd think of buying it.
     
  9. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Feb 15, 2008
    3,287
    Ontario, CA
    Full Name:
    wallace wyss
    In an ad in a British magazine they had a 400i converted by Pavesi
    That is a firm that I ran across in researching the Stutz Blackhawk, a luxury car built on a Pontiac chassis. They did pretty good quality work and had a big factory. I think in the pictures of the Stutz being built they have some buses in the background; maybe that was their bread-and-butter. I also drove a Stutz Blackhawk at a dealership that had the Pavesi badges. So there is a converter I'd have some faith in being a large company with lots of tooling and capabilities.
     
  10. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,169
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    There's several $K hanging below the frame including 4 headers & 6 center mufflers, the bottom of which are a full 4" below the frame & less than 3 1/2" off the pavement.
     
  11. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Feb 15, 2008
    3,287
    Ontario, CA
    Full Name:
    wallace wyss
    A skid pan is what you see on a lot of serious off road vehicles. The idea is that you will still hit because stuff is below the frame, but the skid pan will hopefully distribute the impact and not allow what's hanging down to catch on the obstacle and stop you dead or rip the stuff off. The biggest disaster I envision would be to rip off the oil pan. If what you're hitting has a rounded top (like a speed bump) then maybe you can slide right over it, but that WHUMP will teach you to slow down next time you see any obstacle.

    For your entertainment. In a BMW, I hit a curb so hard headon it moved the entire engine back. The car looked good from a distance but the drivetrain had shifted rearward. Fortunatley I wasn't in the car at the time, it rolled away from me downhill (hey the statute of limiations has expired, I can admit it now)

    I got into researching skid pans when I visited a Mangusta owner. Their ZF gearbox is flipped rightside up vis-a-vis the Pantera which means if they hit a speed bump without slowing down first, they crack the impossible to replace early ZF gearbox casting.
     
  12. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,380
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Welcome to our new poster!

    That indeed corrects the derisive nickname given the the GTC of "Humpback" in Italy....LOL!

    True, the 599GTBs that toured South/North America had a special 1/4" aluminum skid pan....still available today known as the "Texas Ranch Option"......


    Not really, I made that last part up, to see if anyone was paying attention....
     
  13. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    WOW !!........Ferrari blew it when they didn't make a C/4 cabriolet...........that car looks perfect.
     
  14. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2006
    899
    Hi bitzman

    Your last post above caught my interest and attention. Several months ago, I went with a friend to look at a Mangusta that he was interested in buying. I do remember the very special bell housing on the gearbox and how low it was. This car did have a substantial skid plate in place to protect the flywheel and bell housing.

    "Their ZF gearbox is flipped rightside up vis-a-vis the Pantera" I am not sure of your meaning here. Is the gearbox used upside down? This did not catch my eye. Why would the gearbox need to be turned over? If it really is run that way, how did they correct the direction of rotation?
     
  15. Jon Hansen

    Jon Hansen Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2007
    509
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Full Name:
    Jon Hansen
    There is a very detailed thread in the Vintage section called "The Holey Daytona" you would find interesting. It involves taking a cut Daytona to exact factory specifications.
    Lots of info about how the car was not even close to as good as a factory GTS.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183467
     
  16. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Feb 15, 2008
    3,287
    Ontario, CA
    Full Name:
    wallace wyss
    The GT40 used a ZF gearbox
    The Mangusta which was developed just as the GT40 was phased out used the "0" model of the ZF in the same position.
    then the Pantera came out and, having broken more than a few bell housings by then on Gooses, Ford and DeTomaso flipped the ZF upside down in the Pantera, thereby gaining a few precious inches but forever damning the car's cornering ability--meaning the engine also had to be mounted higher in the gearbox's new position. But on the other hand, Pantera owners don't normally hit the gearboxes on railroad tracks/ speed bumps.

    So though the Pantera's solution was more practical, it reduced the cornering power by raising the center of gravity. Incidentally there was a later development of the ZF 5DS25 for the BMW M1 racing cars, I think by that time they were up to a series 2. Roy Butfoy in Orange, CA bought all the tooling and last I heard was servicing ZF gearbox owners. His father was a racing mechanic on the Shelby American team.

    I once bought a used ZF gearbox for $600 but lately I think they are around $12,000--about half the price of a used non restored, non improved Pantera.
     
  17. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2006
    899
    Hi bitzman

    Thanks very much for your explanation of the gearbox mounting. The next time that I have the opportunity, I am going to look at the installation in the Mangusta more carefully. I have a Pantera gearbox under the workbench, but it is a late series, so I guess that there is a big difference in the housing casting. Thanks.
     

Share This Page