Just gimme that autotranny .. column shift and a little window on the dash with PRNDL in it. :)
Pete, Just two questions - how many times have you been responsible for getting a vehicle to pass EPA/CARB tests for ANY automotive OEM? (I'm going to assume zero since you live in OZ) How many times have you had to submit papers to DOT/NHTSA? Quod Erat Demonstrandum
I agree that this is a crazy man project but why the concern over govt paperwork? Its a one off custom, not a series production. Just do it and get it inspected for your state at the local gas station. (Then get your head inspected at the local nut house)
True. But that still does not change the fact that there would be no change in weight distribution . Pete
If you manage to do it, I probably have a source for bias-ply tires, wooden wheels and hand cranked starter- that'll really show those tech-crazy Ferrari engineers a thing or two!
I'm afraid Jim is right. The list of systems that would have to be re-engineered is pretty long. Every ecu on the car would flag errors for no communication with the tcu. Christmas tree dashboard. The getrag box is about twice the size and weight of the graziano box in the 430. So now your weight balance and therefore your suspension settings and brake balance are all wrong. The 458 has no conventional flywheel. It uses what Ferrari call a vibration dampener. So now you have to design a flywheel and clutch that won't explode at 9000 rpm. Part of what makes the 430 and 458 so good is the E-diff. The 458 E-diff is completely integrated into the gear box where the 430 uses the F1 pump for hydraulic pressure. The 430 also has a seperate E-diff ecu where the 458 E-diff is controlled by the tcu. So now you've got to adapt the problematic 430 F1 pump system to your 458. The dry sump oiling system for the 458 is completely different. It would require a complete redesign as well because a section of the 430 box is used as the reservoir for the engine oil. Using aftermarket ecus (yes there are two of them) for the engine would require something that could not only run the engine but also communicate data to all the other ecus on the car. There are about 15 of them. I know that it sounds crazy but that's just how cars are built today. A Chevy Cruze is made the same way. All the ecus talk to each other over a network so that each signal doesn't require a direct hard wire, saving a considerable amount of weight in the wiring harness. Anyone that drove a 599 manual would agree with how difficult it is to drive. That car had an engine that would rev and fall so quickly that it was next to impossible to shift smoothly or even quickly. So the few customers that insisted on manuals for their 599s ended up getting rid of them. We had one that changed hands about 4 times in 2 years. So even if you got what you wanted it doesn't mean that it would be good. All that being said, years ago we had a 456gt come through the shop that had had an automatic installed for the Sultan of Brunei. Not sure if it was Ferrari or perhaps Pinninfarina that did the work but it had a zf gear box that had been used in a Porshe 928. So it would definitely be possible but far more practical for Ferrari to do it. But you would probably have to order more that one and the price would be astronomically higher and take 3 times longer than you would believe.
Good post Zack. Thus I guess making a gear lever "invoke" the paddles would be the better option. But I also concede that these modern Ferraris are made for the computer. Pete
I agree, if you can get anyone willing to do it and guarantee the conversion. I go back to my original post, call your local dealer, tell them what you want at any cost. They will build a one off car for you. Then tell us what it costs. Actually, after you have done it the price will probably drop in half. Another poster mentioned supply and demand. There has not been enough demand for the MT to pay for R&D. C'est la vie.
I find these swap out box threads rather strange. What you want to do is take a perfectly good $270K fast car and make it SLOWER so that it has the driving experience you want. Why not just buy a perfectly good $150K slower car BUT WITH the driving experience you want--- and make it faster? So much easier to do.
I absolutely agree. Please explain to me why an aftermarket ECU, which has greater capability than the standard ECU's (I'm talking about Motec etc), won't pass emissions? We're not talking about modifying the engine here, you can just tell the ECU xyz and it won't do ABC instead. (yes, I'm over-simplifying it!) Ok, in general, when someone puts a motec 880 (or other) in their road car, they do it because they have a completely modified engine, most likely running straight through exhausts etc, so it won't pass emissions like that. If all the parameters stay the same, there's no reason it shouldn't pass. -- I really wish Ferrari (&Lamborghini) would keep on making manuals. It wouldn't make the 458 more appealing to me, because I simply loathe it's Korean looks (sue me). I can understand completely why someone would think the flappy paddle is a brilliant innovation, for road or track. I just can't understand their counter-argument. WHY shouldn't Ferrari continue to please their customers who prefer a manual? It doesn't hurt the flappy paddle crowd that a manual is there as well, is there? Hell, make the manual a $10K option, I'm 100% sure that the people who ordered a 430 with a manual would happily pay extra.
Well, yes. . . but here you are, applying logic to a topic that is strictly emotional. There are two perfectly good, though utterly impractical reasons for wanting to do this: (1) To prove you can; (2) As a matter of conscientious objection against the demise of the classic gated shifter, which I agree with the OP is a tragic passing indeed.
Geeze....this manual/F1 debate will live on forever! As a manual guy who bought an F1 and a 360 F1 at that. I gotta say I can't imagine anything other than an F1 in my car! AND my 360 F1 is the prehistoric version and I still love its raw racecar feel. If the 458 F1 tranny is as great as I have heard.....I must never allow myself to drive one for fear that I will do the unthinkable....you know....BUY it!!
Where do I find a 458 at $150K ? (tounge in cheek) But the counter point is that many of us do not consider the 458 to be "perfectly good" due to the lack of a manual. I have postulates, several times, that the best way to get to point B is to build a small amount of hardware and use it to fool the 458 ECUs and the driver himself (or herself) that the car is a manual (even thos it is not really). But for street driving, and for "having fun" driving on or off track, a car that is a little slower is "of no consequence" whereas a car that communicates with the driver better even while beeing slower delivers a vastly better driving experience. Communication is a two way street, a flappy paddle is a one way street. It is only when you are faced with a similar performing vehicle, and both (all) drivers are in the same league, that the capabilities of the car come into play. There are vast numbers of Z06 drivers whe can only get 0-60 in 4.0 and a few of the talented ones can get there in 3.7 and still have their clutch working years later. Similarly, I routinely run down 360 F1s on r-compound tires in my F355 M6 on street tires--even though the 360 is arguably 6-7 seconds per lap faster (in the hands of a competent driver).
I think he was referring to something along the lines of buying a 430 manual and doing some mods to make it as fast.
I believe that's because most customers don't know how to properly drive a manual. I am also sure many 'modern' owners (ie: those that buy the cars as clothing accessories) believe that heel-toe is a dance step.. not a driving technique.
I found out recently the latest generation Porsche 911 can still be had with a manual transmission... a seven speed manual! Yes, 7 speeds!!
No, find a F430 coupe six speed for 150K and make it faster. What's the point to make a fast car go slower? Is it just to look good? Because if you want to go faster than what's currently on the manual market, just take an existing 6 speed car and juice it.
If you buy the car new, the only cost effective way to do it would be to convince the factory to do it for you. I am not saying it would be inexpensive, but it would be done right, it would be under warranty, it would not be a problem to explain it, if and when you decide to sell the car and I am pretty sure that it would ultimately cost less than if you would do it on your own.
