Correct Washers?

What model Ferrari are you referring to? On cars up to the Daytona era, the drain plugs originally had red fiber washers. However, copper washers usually seal better and last longer. In any case. use a thin smear of Locktite 518 on both sides of the washer, and you will never have leaks.

 

I had a fiber washer on my GT330 transmission oil filler plug. It became glued in place.
Had to use a 1/2" drive impact wrench to remove the filler plug bolt.
I replaced it with a copper crush washer --- I think that these should be used everywhere on the car.

 

Dyke,

Off-topic, but in the same family of issues, do you use any type of sealant when assembling the fittings into the yellow spiral-wound fuel line or brown oil line? I have heard suggestion of a Loctite anaerobic sealant, but I am not familiar with the specific Loctite product number, which would be fuel compatible. Or best no sealant at all for this application?

And while I'm at it, also off-topic (sorry, I don't immediately remember the thread I saw it), you mentioned original use of blue wrinkle paint for cam covers on a small number of Ferraris. I have seen this once in photos of the 410, 1265/SA, which seemed to be a very original car when it came to auction around 2001. I was puzzled by the blue at the time. I later had the delight to see the actual car in the UK, but did not have opportunity to see the motor at the time. I do recall a wonderfully original interior. Intrigued by your mention of this detail, of which few seem aware. Do you know if there other 410s that had blue cam covers?

Thanks, Chris

 

Chris: We use Locktite 515 and 518 on fuel lines, both for the fittings and a smear on the copper or fiber washers. 515 requires some time to cure, and 518 is "instant seal". They are the best thing since chocolate milk!! No more fuel leaks! Lots of application for these products.

You are a very observant Ferrari enthusiast. Both 1015 and 1265 were built with valve covers painted in wrinkle blue paint. What ever the product was, I have never seen paint so firmly attached to the metal.

 

While we are on the subject, where is a good source for copper washers? While rebuilding the brakes on my 250 I tried McMaster-Carr, but no luck with all sizes. I ended up rummaging thru the local NAPA's bins and found some, then bought a whole assortment box from Harbor Freight for the rest. At the end I had a hodge-podge, it all works but the journey was big waste of time.

john

 

John: I have not found a source for the exact copper washers used on the drum brake cars. We grind the old ones flat and re-anneal them. When we find extras, we carefully save them.

 

Thanks Dyke, how do you anneal, cherry red then dunked in oil... does that work well? Thanks.

john

 

John: We just heat them and let them air cool.

 

Hi Dyke, that's what I used to do, but they get so soft that they squeesh too much. I had a leaked once so I stopped this routine. Maybe it was a fluke.

john

 

You heat - or tighten - too much. Grain size growing in copper based metals is a TTT-process (time, temperature & transformation). Larger grain equals softer material and work hardening makes them hard again.

Cherry red might be too much and quenching is not needed; it is used on mild steel to maintain meta-stabil crystallographic structures and compounds appearing in elevated temperatures, which would disintegrate (=return to normal) in slow cooling.

 

Copper washers..one time use.......(308GTB)

 

Although I think that it is a bad idea to keep on using copper crush washers time after time, you can use them more than once it you anneal them.

Heat till dull red for some time to have time for the lattice defects of move about and
restore he proper crystal structure.

Once you have kept them hot for a few minutes, it does not matter how they are cooled,
fast or slow. This is because copper has only one form of crystal structure.

 

Thanks Lowell. How long is "for some time"? Thanks.

john

 

I'm not an expert, but I would think that 3 minutes of dull red would be enough.

However, if the washers are visibly dented, distorted, with groves in them, or what ever,
I would not use them again.

A month or so back, I needed a soft washer. All I could find were regular washers at ACE
Hardware. I bought three. I heated two as I said above. After cooling, I took a spring
loaded center punch and made a dimple in one of the annealed washers and the original
washer that I did not anneal. The dimple in the annealed washer was much deeper, so
I figured it was OK to use the other annealed washer since it had become much softer.

 

Thanks Lowell. I think another option would be to machine them from stock. McMaster Carr sells copper stock with various properties.

john

 

You would still have to figure out hardness, and act accordingly (stock material is hard though, because annealing is expensive and soft material is not useful for most solutions). Baseline still is than a stock ring costs .20-.50 with sellers 100% add already on it. How much machine time can you afford for that?

 

Some expressions that can help you search for local suppliers of these (fully-annealed, solid Copper) washers are "DIN 7603A copper washer" or "DIN 7603 copper washer". Of course, vintage F predate DIN standards so probably many non-standard sizes are used on vintage F, but a supplier that does DIN 7603A may be a source for some non-standard sizes.

Do you have ID x OD x thickness for the size that you seek?

 

Thanks Steve, can you name one or two suppliers of this DIN 7603?

But, (Kare), time not being an issue, would it be feasible to machine the washers from stock? McMaster Carr has a type called "Alloy 110" and says it has "high formability", Hardness: Rockwell F65. This seems to suggest a softer grade of copper.

john

 

Alloy 110 would be a good choice. It is not fully annealed, but I would recommend annealing it after you machine it anyway. By the way copper is not very picky to anneal. Just heat it to dull red to cherry red, time is not important, once it get to that color it is annealed. You can air cool it, or quench it in your favorite liquid it does not matter. I always quench mine in water because I am usually waiting to use it. The quenching also knocks a lot of the oxide layer off.

Cheers Jim

 

I see no problem cutting copper rings out of stock. Adjustable cutter might be the easiest way to do it. Or why not drilling the hole into a pre-cut piece and packing a set of these pieces onto an axle and turning the set into correct OD on a lathe. Spending an hour to make something worth .20 is what I call a great hobby!

 

LOL, I make my own washers too at times. With a little lathe I can make about a half dozen washers in about the same amount of time I can drive to the store and buy them. The great thing about making them is you get the exact size you want. When I go to the store I rarely find exactly what I want, but I can often find what will do.

Cheers Jim

 

Wurth are a good source of metric copper washers
Download their service and repair catalog, ( section 7) , they are on the last page

WURTH USA | Automotive Chemicals, Fasteners, Hand Tools & Electrical Supplies | PDF Catalog - Auto

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