Costs?

Personally I find it very difficult to compare costs of restoration, because each is different (starting point, goals, person doing the work, what needs to be replaced, how accurate the restoration is, country). The only place that a price comparison really makes any sense is for somebody deciding what type of restoration to do depending on how much they want to spend.

So, if somebody had a driver Dino, and wanted to get about your result (originality, quality, level of detail), they can count on ~57K in parts and 1600 hours of labor. But to compare a platinum-level restoration at a renowned Pebble-quality shop, that number may be completely off.

In sum, I think the radio silence has been the result of: 1) the thread got shut down; 2) the question/answer does not really have broad applicability in the end.

Now that you have started this thread, I'm sure that others will join in with other personal anecdotes, but again, what does that number even mean when an extra broken headlight can result in an extra $2k?

Peter

 

Jon -

I don't hang out much in the 206/246 section, but I've seen your thread and always thought it was a great resource. I think the thread was closed mostly because one of the forum mods felt a cooling off period was appropriate (which I agree with), then when the other threads that got created later got merged into it, the original thread status of closed prevented further commentary. I think that was an oversight. I'd add my voice to those encouraging you to continue to post and suggest you request the thread by reopened.

As far as the costs you posted, I think that was very informative. I think one of the things that this site avoids unnecessarily is the discussion of costs. Partly because there is a cultural discomfort with talking about these things because it can be perceived as showing off. I think that is wrong because it I notice most people are starved for cost info more than most other information. What does it really cost in terms of time and $ to do these things, ranging from base level of how much to keep it running, restore to nice driver or full tear-down restoration to 98-point concourse level? Any single data point may be highly variable, but a range of points helps to bracket the scale of effort. I'd certainly like to know these numbers, so I can understand whether the kind of retirement recreation you've committed to is something I would want to keep on my list of things I want to do.

Please continue to share and recognize that there will always be a few % in any large group that have good intentions but phrase things poorly or should just not post.

 

I didn't post as to not make the situation worse....

Regardless of that, I was actuall very surprised the total amount was that small.

Sure, your labor rate is relatively cheap by normal standards, but for whatever reason, based on the in depth restoration, I truely thought you had at least $100k into the restoration.

Based on the final product, the bonding time with your son, and the fact that you aren't selling the car, it seems like a very modest total $ amount....

Regardless of the total costs, the contribution to all of us with your photos and detailed break down, well, not to sound cliched.... is priceless

 

Hope all is well, Jon. I am not sure what is it that you wish from the crowd regarding the cost spent. If there's ten people out there, I am certain that there would be various thoughts. However, I do not see why that matters much. The start of all this appeared to originate from an unthoughtful, careless comment. I am just one of the souls out there that admired your unselfish, dedication and goodwill to share your hobby with people here. For that, you deserve nothing but applause and all the good things. Speaking strictly for myself, the subject of money was not a concern. It is understood that it costs money to take on such a project. In all honesty, the feeling is more of envy and awe that someone do have the strong desire, determination, and means to take on such a hobby and finish to such a level. Furthermore, my admiration for your unselfishness to share that with strangers. ........I am beginning to loose sight of what I am trying to say. Let me stop here. Thanx. w/ smiles Jimmy

 

Jon, Your costs for the restoration seem very reasonable to me for what you had done, assuming there is no figure in there for your labor. However, if your labor is included in that figure, can I hire you to restore a few cars?

I have spent over $30,000 just in body and paint work so far on 7580 and I'm not done with that part yet!

 

Hi Jon,

Not nearly an exorbitant amount of money not even close, even at 100$/hr labor rate which would add 160k bringing your total to to just over 200k for a top level full restoration. Not out of the ordinary by any means. Actually I have no idea how you were able to get Paint,Chrome, Engine parts,Machine Work, Mech parts, and Misc services done for that kind of money. I couldn't do it for that cheap, with metal work and paint I could eat most of that up before even getting to the Mechanicals. What usually happens for me is that I still spend the 1500+ hours on the car and have to discount my labor to make up for all the little unexpected costs or delays that come up just to stay on budget. I am doing a 206 now that I have to tear down to the bare bones and do everything and I have a pretty tight budget so I will see how I compare. Sorry to see you go but I can completely understand, I had to do basically the same thing with the GTE restoration I was posting on another site. it was very fun and informative and I met people over the world that brought information to the table I would have never found on my own. Unfortunately it eventually degraded into people commenting and arguing over each and every detail so I just decided to bag it and keep my piece of mind. Enjoy your cars and thank you for all your contributions.

Zac

P.S. My Rosina's offer still stands

 

Glad to see you back. Don't worry about it. The whole debacle was and remains SEP - Somebody Else's Problem. Not yours.

Then as now, there would, could and should not be a problem as you have simply been documenting a Labor of Love.

Hop back on that horse! Giddyup!

 

Kind of off the subject but read along I will bring it into topic. I play with old British cars and I have spent what some people in the club think are large sums of money on some items but since I do my own work the end result is always less then everyone else.

For example, the motor on my 34 Singer is going to run about $15k but when done I will have a motor I can drive daily if I want and because I will have done all the other work on the car, I won't have more than about $30k (maybe 35k) in the restoration costs and they were selling for mid-50's before the crash, factor in my purchase price and I am breaking even IF I ever sold it. I know one member who spent $55k having his car restored professionally and it is only worth mid-50s and oh yeah, I would not trust it out of the city limits.

I can afford to do the motor right and everything else right because I do all my own work, much like Jon does. I don't have his shop that is for sure, but my garage is 1,050 sq. ft. and I have quite a list of cool tools (Jon still has more tools, darn it). If I had to factor in someone's labor, I would lose a ton of money, as is I won't make any money (especially since it will not be for sale) but I will have a car that I can say "I restored it, I sent out the motor for machining work of course but I did everything else including basic body work, I basically sent it out for final body prep and paint" There is a lot of pride in saying that.

I have worked a lot on my Dino (FIAT variety) and I can easily say that Jon did his Dino cheap, these Dino's are not inexpensive to work on. I spent $10k just getting my Dino on the road when I purchased it and I did not have to pull the motor. Labor is always the most of any restoration, my rule of thumb is twice the parts so if Jon spent 50k labor would have been 100k.

There is however a crowd that believes these Dino's are highly complex cars built with space technology and that only a rocket scientist could ever work on them and maybe they got upset that someone had the nerve to go and work on his Dino.

 

and Welcome Back Jon !

 

Hello, Jon,

I don't believe cost is a sensitive subject, and that's a comment coming from the culturally sensitive East. Yes, I think you didn't get responses because the thread was closed. I personally found the information quite useful and eager for more. It is actually quite interesting to compare costs.

On a personal level, what I spent on my own restorations (Lotuses not Dinos) has been a sensitive topic to me, because I don't want to know or remember how much I spent! I do have to have parts shipped, usually by air, and sometimes by sea (a new chassis and an engine from a specialist in England), replaced clutch covers, struts, housings with magnesium equivalents, etc., so my total cost exceeds the market price of the car by a wide margin. It's not logical or rational, but it's a hobby for me, so I don't mind and I am happy.

If I may, I would like to say don't be too wary now of creating the wrong impression, Jon. You're among enthusiasts. We're all crazy (my apologies) in a good way. The thread will appreciate the candor and the information. (And, yes, just ignore the detour that disrupted the thread - it was just a blip - and carry on as before like nothing happened.)

As I said, we're all kids here, and now we're waiting for the game to restart.

My best,

Andy
Manila

 

Jon - I believe that the use of the word "spent" implies dollars traded for items received (or services). I prefer to look at my investments as a transfer of assets. This is no different, in my opinion, than moving dollars out of one stock into another, or from bank account to another, or from one asset class to another. Thus, $10,000 U.S., for example, spent on the Dino is simply a transfer of assets from one account to another. I believe, naively perhaps, that the value of the Dino has gone up by the same amount. Over time, the value of the Dino my exceed the dollar value invested in it. On the other hand, the resultant value may go down....no different than any other investment.

Indeed, a Dino purchased 5 years ago, rather than the same amount in traditional equities, would have been a wise investment.

This is different than purchasing a Dino with the intent of making money. Bad choice. However, purchasing a Dino, and caring for it, will allow one to enjoy the ownership and years later sell the car for approximately the same price. Thus, purchasing a $100,000 car is not "spending" $100,000, but merely transferring dollars between asset classes.

One's net worth has not changed with the purchase of the Dino - less liquid, perhaps, but no change.

Jim S.

 

Jon: First, I thank you for the restoration post, it was far and away my favorite thread...because we ALL want to be doing it! I understand your reason for bailing, I would have done the same. As to your question, I find the costs you posted to be quite low, obviously the result of doing the work yourself and being thoughtful about what you hired others to do.Based on the first Dino I think the retail value/cost of having it restored by a quality shop to that quality level would be much higher, say between $150,000 and $200,000.
Malcolm

 

Jon, By outsourcing only that which you and Jeff did not feel qualified to tackle, you reached the perfect compromise in your two restorations. You and Jeff have the satisfaction of having done a huge amount of the work yourselves, you hired the best experts in your area to do the rest, and you saved some money in the process (not counting your not inconsiderable man-hours). This is sometimes referred to as "imputed income," that is, the value of your labor is in the finished product, and since you have no tax basis in your labor, it's considered a freebie. You didn't have to expend after-tax dollars to obtain your own labor. In other and simpler words, you are a far luckier and more talented individual than I! Fred p.s.: Please re-open the latest resto. thread when you're ready! f

 

Such a shame.

A couple of louts* shoot, shout and shut down the best thing on the internet.

...At least there's still http://www.dinorestoration.com/.

Thanks for the threads, Jon. Please do continue.


(*Even if I agree with them about the loathsome saccharine fawning of some of the less assured forum participants.)

 

Who cares what it costs?
did / do you enjoy doing it? Obviously so!
The actual number is an interesting factoid, but what you and your son have accomplished is amazing, and the time spent together is probably priceless.

the couple of haters who made an issue of the money can pi$$ off. Man... check out the Daytona or Lusso resto project threads. One guy has dragged his Lusso all over the world, used several "restorers" who have turned out to be bone heads. Can't imagine what that guy has spent. Think Napolis could ever get the money he spent out of his P4/5 project?

But who am I to judge? Its all interesting in my book, the projects themselves. There are house threads with insane mansions for way too much money (IMO), garage threads with folks with millions in cars. Who cares what the cost is? I'm glad others with an automotive passion are sharing with us!

Jon, you live in America. As long as you worked hard, made your money in a honest fashion, and are not actively scamming the system.... spend your money as you see fit. You can do this (for now) in America. Some folks have more "juice" than others... no reason to hate 'em!

Jon - bring back the resto thread! Put TonyL or whoever on your "ignore" list; he is a small pothole in life.

 

Jon, thanks for starting this thread. The old one closed before I could thank you for it.
As the saying goes some folks know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

I'm keeping this one...

 

Jon,

You may be able to get Gary Bobileff to give you an idea on what his shop would charge for a similar restoration. He may not want it printed online though. Maybe PM him.

I think your costs have been on the low side.


.. remember, everytime you do it yourself you're offsetting the cost of that new tool

 

My first thought after it was questioned was heck he is doing most of the work himself, what about all the guys that consign there car to a professional restorer ? They pay 4-8 times as much!

What's wrong with restoring something to the highest level of your ability ?

 

I'm actually a bit inspired by your cost disclosure. I expected it to be a lot higher but you've given me a bit inspiration to think that maybe I could do something like this someday.

 

Rebuilding the engine and transmission is a bit daunting, but heck I rebuilt an Alfa 1600 Veloce engine when I was twenty.

 

Jon:

A restoration done by a professional (in California) will cost about $120,000 up to $250,000, and I don't think they will do as thorough a job as you did.

The only other, less expensive option, is to do it yourself, as you did. I know of VERY few people who undertake a full restoration of their own car, and know of not a single one that has completed it in the time frame you did or has done as complete a job of it.

I was very surprised at how little out of pocket you spent restoring your Dino, for a full frame off effort. You went WAY beyond what most professionals do in terms of the level of tear down (many will not remove the fibreglass tub, for example) and refurbishment. Having seen the car after completion, it also looks as good as any professional restoration, and better than most I have seen.

Let's look at it another way. Your total cost was $57,500 in parts and outsourced works. Bottom line. Let's add to that the 1600 hours labor spent. Let's further assume that you paid yourself like a professional mechanic. A professional shop in San Diego will charge an average of call it $100/hour (some mechanical time at $120 some body shop time at $70), so you have $160,000 in labor plus the parts for a total of $217,000. Guess what, that's exactly the same as having a professional do it. So you are absolutely no worse off than if you had quietly and anonimously sent the car to a shop to be restored.

However, I would argue that you got a better deal by doing it yourself. You in fact did not spend what it would have cost to have a professional do it, you got a better car for your efforts, you indulged in your hobby/passion and you spent a lot of memorable time with your son. These last two cannot be beat and they alone make it worth the effort. We'll throw in, as a bonus, the people who you have met and who have met you because you did it yourself and because you put it out on the web for all to see.

I for one am sincerely very impressed and in fact consider it a privilege to have seen your work in process and the final product in the flesh, and the better for having met you.

I completely, albeit with a heavy heart, understand your reaction and desire to shut down the other thread. You were unfairly and needlessly attacked by two or three people only because they were jealous and envious of you, your ability, your resources, and your ability to spend the time to do it. It had nothing to do with what you spent, no matter how much they deny it. It's as simple as that. It is a sad state of human affairs this, and it is unfortunately only enhanced by the anonimity of the Internet.

Alberto

 

Fantastically put Alberto! I can add nothing to your comments

 

Surprised at how little money spent/ liquidity lost kinda thing.
Of course 55K is peanuts to some and an insurmountable obstacle to others.
16000 hours is the thing. That's where your advantage lies, in the available time you can devote to your project, without the days business messing with your head. That's what you worked for, that's what you earned that's what you deserve. Well done!