You keep droning on with the notion that dumping the cats and headers will make the Fuelie the same as the Downdraft. This is not the case. The fact is, the engine unit used for the Carbureted cars contained higher-compression ratio pistons and more aggressively lobed camshafts. Not only has this been photographically documented and calibrated by various specialists during rebuilds post-production, the factory’s own parts manual documents separate parts numbers for the higher-performance pistons and camshafts in the carbureted engine unit. Downdrafts camshafts are part numbers: 1220848, 1220847, 1220845, 1220846. There is a performance reason why they are different. Fuelie camshafts are part numbers: 1221851, 1221852, 1221871, 1221872. There is a performance reason why they are different. Downdraft pistons are part numbers: 001420801 producing a 9.5 : 1 compression ratio. Fuelie pistons are part numbers: 001420828 producing a 9.3 : 1 compression ratio. There is a performance reason why they are different. The crankshafts of the Downdraft and the Fuelie are different also. On review of the parts manuals, it is established that the Downdraft and the Fuelie are made up of literally hundreds of different components, with resultant performance difference. The Fuelie engine's less potent specification is all about emissions. The lower compression ratio produces lower peak cylinder pressures to reduce NOX emissions. The cams have less overlap to prevent the exhaust from over-scavenging the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. Milder cams in general make it easier to minimize carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions. Fuel injection can be manipulated more easily than carbs with a view to improving emissions. The tradeoff is that the Fuelie cars with lower compression pistons generate lower torque ratings and therefore have a lower power output. Incidentally, the factory’s tuning package for Carbureted engines allowed for a sports camshaft, bigger jets, carburetor spacers and air-flow optimization, the latter meaning that cars could be tuned to achieve 470 bhp plus. Induction for the Downdraft is vastly superior as the route the air takes from the intake trumpets of the six Weber 44DCNF carbs into the combustion chambers is a short and relatively straight column that is only @ 12 inches. This is the main reason why the throttle response of the Downdraft is superior to that of the Fuelie. With a Fuelie engine, the path the air has to take into the combustion chamber is much longer as it has to turn 180 degrees. With the Downdraft, the throttle plates are right there in the carb throats whereas the Fuelie system has two large butterflies where the flexible hoses meet the air plenum. As such, the Downdraft engine has venturi of air pulling from that air on top of the carbs in the air box as a high flow direct path into the combustion chamber. The power difference between a Downdraft and a Fuelie is not simply a mater of changing exhaust headers and dumping cats as you try to get yourself to believe. Recent testing by independent entities conclusively shows the Downdraft engine unit as being significantly more powerful than the Fuelie engine, the latter which does not live up to the factory's stated numbers as Mike Call already suggested in the DD vs FI thread - more to come on this. Please allow me to show you some of the components of the Fuelie engine that are different which collectively mean it will never be nearly as potent as the Downdraft Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Good poins. Posss a lot to do wiith and all this has beeing posted numerous times, and the reason for the Different(not better not worse) specs on cams and pistons,is the fuelinjected version of the qv,benefitted from the superior induction system supplied by Bosch,(hard to beat in terms of quality fuel system supply) this fi is not by any means close to todays EFI set ups,but 30 or so years ago,far superior to any Carburator, the future,if you like,also the lighter pistons in the fi engine makes for a rev happy motor, if looked inn to,more power is gained in piston weight savings,than lost in the insignificant 0,2 compression loss. Fast forward 30 years, the mighty qv fi in all its glory,can be fitted with exhaust as the ROW cars, bumpers reversed,and just like that, the fi is free to run like his carbed brother, breathing free and happy,put the 2 variants on a drag strip, both cars tuned to spec, 2 qualified drivers(not me lol) then lets do a real world dyno(THE STRIP showdown, wich one is quicker? Lets put it this way,if Pinechris pulled up in Sackeys driveway,or the other way around,it would be extremely exiting.
The comments about Fuelies in the May 2018 issue number 179 of Octane magazine are 100% correct based on our independent findings. Due to the long run-up to this article, Octane had every opportunity to do their own corroboration and elected to publish those comments. Expect such comments to become the norm in the car community for the simple fact that they are true. Since then we have compiled an impressive amount of data to support those comments for future publications. Actually, of @ 8 magazine articles I've been involved in in a major or minor way, these two http://joesackeyclassics.com/magazine-articles/ are the ones I am most proud of. If anything is shameful, it's the futile attempts by 3 Fuelie owners to discredit the reality of the differences between the two variants, but as the say the truth always comes out. I think you should practice what you preach, instead of whining & complaining that someone is not giving your car the credit it deserves, go ahead and champion the cause of the car you say you love, do your own work, do the research, create the articles, write the books. Speaking of books, in the past 15 years I've published these two http://joesackeyclassics.com/authored-books/the-lamborghini-miura-bible/ & http://joesackeyclassics.com/authored-books/the-book-of-the-ferrari-288-gto/ and the next one will be on the Countach with a lot of hitherto unpublished corroborated material. There is nothing to stop you doing the same for your beloved Fuelie. Let's remember it's not my job to be a nice guy and try to be all things to all people, my job is to peel the layers of the onion and get to the subject heart of the matter which I happen to focus on, and bring forth new and previously undocumented information to the benefit of that car, and whilst I'm very happy with my efforts thus far, there is always room for improvement Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thick skinned Countach men would never make a comment like this Back on topic, let's not forget the other article I was somewhat involved with, Classic & Sportscar decided to feature a special panel of the FIA Homologation of the Downdraft and it's relevance. You'll be relieved to hear that despite some very non-complimentary things 3 most major factory players said about the Fuelie, I omitted them from my articles despite the fact that they are true and could have legitimately been included to the benefit of many Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Be careful what you wish for, this is not that hard to organize if you have the right contacts. Perhaps you should volunteer your car as the Fuelie? Would the Auto Club (California) Speedway drag strip and track be an acceptable venue? Or would Thermal Raceway's North & South Palms circuit be an acceptable venue for the track lapping segment? As interchangeable drivers with some Countach experience so there are no excuses, would 2 of these guys below be acceptable? (3 have significant Countach experience and there's a 4th who wouldn't mind at all) Image Unavailable, Please Login
Nils, did Bruce Canepa himself tell you that he was "asking $750k" for the dark green color-changed Fuelie, and, did he also tell you that the car "sold for tad below $700k", and if not Bruce, who told you those numbers?
My car runs very good,but stock exhast and no headers,meaning it got acc to the factory spec 420 hp, very quick but not 455 hp, you need a no restricted car,just like yours,but fi
Mr Joe,as always you are missing my point, i am getting nowhere, wich is fine, i got no more to add, the 2 cars share the mighty qv engine,same castings heads and block, with cams and pistons to match the respective inductions, lets put it this way,you bombard the enthusiasts with your arrogance,while the facts are loud and clear, 5,2 litres,quad cam 4 valves .one carbed unrestricted,one fuel injected,restricted,thats it,nothing else. Enough said, its time for dinner, long day,good day, enjoy your evening
Of course a Fuelie owner wants a car that has been modified and derestricted! Haha. However, whomever does all the work to stage this gets to make all the decisions, we'll do things a little differently from the way perhaps you'd do them. By the way no standard Fuelie pulls anywhere near 420 on a dyno, it's more like @ 380 max, you can try it with your own car since you say it runs very good, and if you doubt this, send it to us and we'll make it part of the test. We'll use multiple cars in standard configuration to draw a conclusion. Firstly, we'll use a Fuelie that's bone stock from the factory to establish a benchmark, then one with sport headers and sports exhaust to see how much difference the much ballyhooed headers & exhaust swap makes. Then a Downdraft that's bone stock from the factory with box exhausts, then one with sports exhausts. Same difference calculation here. 2 cars each variant, we'll then draw conclusions from the results to not only establish the performance differences between the Fuelie and the Downdraft, but the equipment differences. All independently supervised. Interchanged Motorports-experienced drivers with Countach experience. Two-way runs. Separate times hot laps. Ideal venue, identical fuel type & load, identical tire pressures, identical weight carried, suspension settings checked, all cars no wing or wing deleted. Two separate clients of mine have independently advised me that the asking price of the car was $575k and not $750k. How do they know this? They were actually offered the car at $575k asking. $575k is a far cry from $750k. Both are prominent collectors who know Canepa, and both are FChatters. One of them has advised me that in the course of discussions he was advised that the car could be purchased around $90k less than the asking price = @ $485k. Either way, it appears the story of a $750k ask and a sale a tad under, is patently false. Shameful. Can you imagine if I based it all on the Mimran Downdraft with blueprinted engine, sport cams etc? There would be a huge hue & cry of foul! Although I would definitely include it in the mix. Again, we'll have to use multiple cars in standard configuration to draw a conclusion, in the same way the engine bench dyno testing has been carried out over time, all it takes is planning & time. FWIW, I'm just messing with Nils, and I would not consider using Allan's car with raised-up rear suspension, there would be a cry of foul or excuses made there too in a lapping situation. We have a pool of potential cars from both variants. I never miss your point, but just because you say something does not make it right, I simply don't blindly always accept that your POV is either correct or relevant, frustrating I know, but sometimes you come accords someone who draws their own conclusions based on their own research & experience, no arrogance whatsoever, you are just frustrated with what is simply a sharing of learned facts that aren't what you want to hear. You say you have no more to add, then don't add anything.
This is what Bruce Canepa told me,i spoke to him twice,getting info and price,once i saw the car on his sold site,i spoke to him again,he informed me it sold for a tad less than 700k, do not shoot the messenger, i was given this info, no reason for me to doubt his words.
I understand what you are saying about your role limited to being that of a messenger. However, how do we reconcile that with two (2) separate clients of mine have both independently and separately advised me that the asking price of the car was a matching $575k as offered to them, and not $750k? They actually had no interest in the car per se but it was offered to them at this price, how come this same asking price of $575k has been separately corroborated by 2 independent people who have not spoken with each other AFAIK, one of whom was specifically advised that the car could be purchased around $90k less than the asking price @ $485k? $575k and then $485k are a huge difference from $750k and "a tad under $750k" so how come such a disparity? So many questions.
Joe ,as i said,i have nothing more to add,why do you have such hatred against the fi car? being equal to yours,with the exeption of the fi,is mind boggeling,to say the least,you loved this engines performance and caracter a few years ago,acc to your own posts,what happened? Did i offend you?is this personal? I can not for the best of me understand your 180 degree turnaround? I respect your passion for the carbed car,its yours to own,but why not respect the facts,these are similar 4 valve 5,2 liter engines,with different inductions,also based on oficial 0,-60 times the difference in the restricted fi exhaust version versus the unrestricted carbed car,reflects the 35 hp, why are we fighting on this subject? I can not for the best of ,understand this, like i said,this is all i got.
You say you've got nothing more to add, but then you immediately add! I think you should practice what you preach on all fronts. I promise you, it's not personal, it's all about the cars, I've learned about the superior attributes of the Downdraft and believe they deserve to be shared & appreciated, I also believe those attributes same should not be disparaged or minimized just because you own a car that doesn't possess them, and I think it's easy to understand that years later someone comes to conclude that something else is better.
Playing devil's advocate, you might be underestimating what George Evans did on the rebuild & driving experience of Allan.
Understood, I know GE tweaks & modifies the cars, but I'm absolutely not interested in testing modified cars, I'd only use cars that exist in the same mechanical spec as they left Sant Agata, if the engine or suspension has been rebuilt, it has to be to factory specs, you have to have a uniform established baseline, otherwise the results will not be conclusive as it relates to the cars' factory specification.
This is where things go wrong. You are not being fair & stacking the deck. The difference is going to be more pronounced on the fi car with the cat convertors, log exhaust manifolds, and suitcase muffler, smog pump, and of course the heavy US bumpers. The difference I am curious about is what if those simple things were eleminated. Or done another way, find a dd that is 50 state legal, still carrying all of the emission gear & compare that. I'm guessing no such animal exist.
From day one in this discussion,I have been very specific reg this comparison,The injected car,given the Exhaust,from the carbed car,no cats,loose the bumpers,IOW,the garb wich was delivered on the car as new,based on its zip code, very simple,no more no less, in short,this is all this discussion is about. I ask in F,but the answer comes back in P, go figure.
Did you read this above? "Firstly, we'll use a Fuelie that's bone stock from the factory to establish a benchmark, then one with sport headers and sports exhaust ..."
Must have glazed over that part. Good! A engine only dyno pull, if that chance came up, would be nice.
Joey, With all the howling protests flying around, please let's not glaze over, this is how misunderstandings start. There is a lot of pertinent & specific information in the posts I make, granted, I do not expect everyone to actually read all the content and digest the information therein (!), but that would be helpful and could put minds at ease, as in this instance. I think we are quite capable of being fair & objective in establishing the facts as we know them to be for popular consumption. Setting up what I have described above costs a small fortune in time & resources, and I am certain anybody who complains will conversely not be willing to put their money where their mouth is and do something similar as is their prerogative if they think it should be done differently. The bottom line is, when you're doing all the work, you get to do it the way you want. In our case that will be methodically & fairly. I think by now I have a reputation within the community for doing whatever I turn my hand to in a thorough and quality manner. Meanwhile, yes, I have already shared within this thread, and with you privately, 2 separate Fuelie engines have been dyno'd out of the car (on-the-bench), with sports headers & sports exhaust, and those results are corroborated by those of a 3rd car in the Midwest dyno'd by someone else, also out of the car. We are compiling a database using multiple cars and this is ongoing, and the data so far already paints a clear picture and is the basis upon which I have made my aforementioned power-differential comments above. Projects like this takes time, but like publishing books, restoring cars, or organizing reunions, we'll see it to completion. Perhaps we'll make the data public, we'll see, but of course the acceleration tests and the lapping results will be made public with images and in a film, that's the whole point.
