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Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Aug 21, 2007.
my could was exactly for this...if you adjust the car for them
aniway ...not worth the cost and effort!
i would keep the stock OZ
Reason number 101 not to swap wheels..
I guess I am not the only one that likes to put S1 wheels on your later S2...car
George Evans car...looks great to me..
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No. Just have 20+ years experience with wheel industry to know what happens with altered offsets. Bascially a lower offset wheel pushes the wheels out further to the outside. So lets say original wheels were 15 offset, and you put on wheels with 5 offset, 10 mm further out on each corner, essentially you would have 20 mm overall wider track. This wider track would actually increase stability when cornering.. A 10 mm or less difference in offset changes very little. If you had 25mm or more difference is more notable. Putting on spacers to achieve lower offset is not the way to go and because of the additional assembly can actually have a destabilizing effect. However, if the lower offset is incorporated into the wheel itself would not create a possible destabilizing effect. Of course, the above is when the size of wheel, size of tire are the same size, and where as the fenders could still accomodate the increased track.
1. The lighter is beneficial
2. If the wheel offset and tire size are same on the later model but with lighter weight, yes. But of course, the bravo are not the same offset nor is the tire size same as later models... thus no...
I thought not.
Of course, dont mind my expertise with wheels since it is a CT lol... Well unless the countach abides by totally different suspension principles not applicable to cars, rules of wheel offsets apply to every car out there... The reality is that the more track width you can have the better you can take corners for a given tire size since load transfer from the inside to the outside is less.
I weighed my Bravo wheels when I had them refinished some years ago. The front wheels weigh 16 pounds and the rear wheels weigh 26 pounds. Does anyone have the weights for the reproductions?
1979 LP400S, S1, SN 112.1094
I forgot to clarify: George's car is an S3. Note stance.
Great info, thanks David.
Nowadays with modern casting methods for aluminum, those weights off the magnesium bravos are actually achievable... for example, modern casted aluminum wheel size of 18x8 can have weight of just 16lbs...The only thing is that we just dont know about the weight of the repros... But if they casted according to the original blueprints of the magnesium bravos, then the possibility of it close to the originals in weight would not be good.... If there was additional engineering to reduce the weight based on the properties of aluminum and the corresponding method of casting, then a lower weight close to the originals would be possible... Also, if casting of the repros are sand casting, then the weight goes up even more... Sand casting for magnesium wheels is pretty old and unreliable method given that magnesium is by nature a highly volatile material... You combine the propensity for sand casting to yield highly porous castings and coupled that to magnesium, throw in a couple of decades into that mix and it becomes quite dangerous....
I understand all your theories and take them at face value.
Now. We are speaking of Bravo wheels that are being reproduced and being sold on the market. My client who has a genuine S1 had a bad experience with them. Until you can speak with specificity about those particular aftermarket wheels that have caused a dangerous problem for him, please, lets wait till someone else who has actually tested both original & repro sets weighs in.
Very respectfully, I feel certain that you are not willing to guarantee my client's safety based on your theories.
Anybody have any thoughts on this Countach?
I know it is a garage queen and will need work, but does anyone know its history or have anything to add? I believe I can get it at a good deal even with about 15K in work.
I believe this car was owned by Dr Ed W in Michigan for the first 14 years of its life. I would perform a PPI.
Joe / Roy,
Thoughts on this? What is a factory "S"? Or, did someone just stick an "S" badge on it? Also, 12 shocks? I was under the impression the Countach only had 6 (4 in back, 2 in front). ;-). Maybe the 12 includes the springs too....
Yes, Mike, saw that thisw AM myself..not my cup of tea as far as color..but..
I have serious question as to this post as well as other cars claiming to be "S" some super duper tuned machine by the factory..AND if he had such documentation, you would think for the sake of the sale, he would post a copy of it..??
He must be counting the 6 shocks & 6 springs = 12.
The color reminds me of that old Grabber Blue Ford used in the late 60s/early 70's. An improvement over the Mary K pink car for sure.
Reaching for the moon.
The pink Countach is HOT
Joe, what I have said thus far are not theories but facts on wheel manufacturing and automobile handling that people can research themselves. Besides, 1. your client's experience could stem from many variables that may or may not be the wheels themselves. Its a bit more complicated than just putting them on and concluding its the wheels... 2. I would never advocate to wait for a fellow enthusiast with both types of wheels to go out testing in their prized possession risking life and limb only to make a post on this board. 3. Even if they do the testing, do they have the experience in accurately conclude that the problems are the wheels themselves or if its something else? Regardless, it is a fact that the original bravo wheels or any magnesium sand casted wheel from pre 80s are not the most durable wheels built... This fact gets me worried for those that have them... At the age those Bravos are at, I would keep them for cruises instead of using them at high speeds... Just go on the internet and see what happens when magnesium meets water... then imagine those wheels being the structure holding tires that keep your car on the road... If people are so concerned about build codes on tires, why not wheels with volatile metals? I would strongly suggest people still look into the repros or even later model oz wheels to use as a precaution... Since the value of these cars continue to go up, it would be in no one's interest to see another car destroyed because of the wheels....
I have to disagree with the whole widening of the track via wheel offset being a good idea. As stated, the suspension is designed/set to the whee. Have you ever seen those "lowrider" cars with extremely offset wheels sticking way out beyond the wheel wells? Their wheel bearings don't last very long...
In fact I don't know. I do not know this particular car other than to be aware of its existence for many years, but have never had occasion to research its history.
Whilst I dont put it past the guys at Sant Agata to have stuck that "S" badge on simply because it was the last one (again, anything is possible), its also possible it was put on by somebody post-production.
Again. I understand your desire to put your own unique brand of circular logic on display.
You are assuming many things. How do you know how much testing has been done by the owner of the S1 and how many other variable he has already eliminated?
Also, who is calling for anyone to now go out testing? Some have tested these wheels and have already removed them and we are simply asking them to recount experiences.
What do you have as regards specific data on the aftermarket reproduction Bravos as used on a Countach that are central to our discussion?
Allow me to put it another way - can you enlighten us as to the differences in handling that these repro Bravo wheels will cause to a S1 Countach?
There appears to be a lot of smoke bellowing forth on this topic, and it aint from an Ansa Sport F1 exhaust!
I just received an e-mail from the owner of a Countach S S1 who tried the reproduction wheels. He has since removed them. This gentleman is an experienced vintage racer and is an industrialist who owns a utility automobile company which employs wheel & tire engineers. Here are his comments:
"In kg per rim without tyre
Aluminium repro: 13.3 kg fronts, 14.7 kg rears
Magnesium original 7.7 kg fronts, 11.3 kg rears
Difference: 5.6 kg fronts, 3.4 kg rears
The casting is different as well, meaning that the repro's have lot of increased weight at the wheel's outside due to the offeset. This results in a significant gyroscopic effect at speeds above 100-120km/h. The wheels wants to continue straight, so this results in a dangerous situation when turning the steering wheel. The car feels totally out of balance.
As a result of increased unsprung weight of 18 kg (all 4 wheels) the car is less "go cart like". And it results in lower acceleration.
I myself find them extremely dangerous. Car is totally un-drivable. And unpredictable.
Additionally, if you mount 225 tires instead of 205 the car's height at front increases by about 2 cm, and the width of tires results in different behavior as well, compounded especially with the repro's."
LOL... I find it just amusing that you think that Ive posted on this topic just to display "circular logic" and that its just a lot of smoke from me... um... Ive worked with thousands of wheel fitments over the years on countless of vehicles that are even more sensitive to alterations in wheel size, width and offset than a fitment for this s1 and merely wanted to contribute to this forum a little insight on this topic. I am not the type to post on a daily basis as evident in the number of post i have made over the years as a forum member... nor do I use this or any forum as a platform for my business... Nor do I supply these wheels to eurospares. So, blowing smoke on this forum really wont help me in any way shape or form.. So here goes....
I didnt presume that the owner hasnt gone through many test to try to fix the problem since I dont believe anyone would want to have spent money on a set of wheels that ended up as worthless.
For starters, just the material used vs the originals and the resulting the wheel weight being higher than the originals already tells me the result will be a more sluggish turn in and thus the feedback would be duller but more severe than the originals. As to how much would be dependent on how much weight gained... So buyers of the repros expecting similar to identical handling, and braking characteristics are already going to be in for a surprise.. Then, if any slight problems in suspension are already present but not really noticeable off the originals will be amplified and noticeable with the heavier wheels. Vibrations that are not very noticeable will become apparent with the heavier wheels... Tires, wheel bearing tolerances, hub tolerances are just a small part of what is needed to be reviewed... Not to mention how a tire is balanced to the wheel all contribute to the end result... (yes. even tire mounting and balancing can create problems/ have had a tire mounted 10 times to the same wheel and achieved different results everytime... ) Then you have issues of alignment relevant to the new wheel and tire... And those factors are just the tip of iceberg...
I in fact had investigated those repros a long time ago to put on my ct because I liked the style.. However, knowing that bravos would result in a narrower track vs the original will reduce corning rather than enhance it, I refrained from purchasing it. ( I have the OZ wheel prints given to me by Valentino long ago as comparison) Of course, weight is not as much of an issue since later CT are already aluminum and the weight would probably be close ( but the protrusions on the dials would add even more weight than the OZ... ) But with a s1, having some deviation in handling characteristic to have a peace of mind from a stonger aluminum wheel is in my opinion worth it.... which was my recommendation to utilize later OZ wheels...
Any case, those are all things that even a mechanic would refer to wheel specialists to investigate... But dont worry, Im sure most people know what trouble shooting protocols would allow them to properly interpret all those information to know that if truly the wheels are 100% the culprit... Especially when on an internet forum, almost everyone is a specialist in some shape and form....
P.S seeing your additional post while i was typing up mine only reaffirms what i have just said about the weight's effects.