Countach, the ultimate supercar

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Aug 21, 2007.

  1. stlouis

    stlouis Karting

    Oct 7, 2007
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    Interesting. And for me, it's a sort of a conclusion.

    Though, in the previous post, there was a question mark that is striking me : would it be true that magnesium wheels would age badly ?

    Any evidence to support this statement ? Or is that guessing ? Maybe a false assumption since there is some varnish on the rims that is providing an isolation from air and water ?
     
  2. qvpower

    qvpower Formula Junior

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    Magnesium is suseptble to moisture corrosion. Especially with sand casting which yields a more porous product, if rock chips compromise the paint, then the possiblity of corrosion can occur under humid conditions as moisture can penetrate under the paint.. Its not going to explode, but the moisture acts as a catalyst. That being said, how can anyone be certain that the paint and coating wont be compromised by scrapes since brake dust, and othre elements deteriorate the finish over time? food for thought
     
  3. Peter K.

    Peter K. F1 Rookie
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    #11978 Peter K., Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
    Seen this car in person. Some chick was driving it. It was at the 40th in NY. Photos are kicking around. I will contact them...any questions you would me to ask?
     
  4. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    Hi Peter!

    Hope all is well with you! No questions from my end, I was just curious what that "S" badging was for on the rear of the car.

    Mike
     
  5. Peter K.

    Peter K. F1 Rookie
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    #11980 Peter K., Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
    Yes, it was the car from the 40th. Appearence was very nice in and out. Was next to it when it was leaving. Started and sound the way it should.

    If anyone need me to go look at it and report back, I am only 20-30 minutes away.
    Spoke it the owner. He a true Lamborghini guy, got several.
    He has an offer that I think is very good.
    He has all paperwork to back up all claims.
    What d you guy think a reasonable price is?
     
  6. ken qv

    ken qv Formula 3

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    I'll thank everyone for their input because I have learned something and now look at rims in a new light. I never was a fan for changing them and this is just another reason not to.
    I love the blue on that countach. Seems the same to me as on Roys new 88.5 DD but from his comment, I guess not. I appreciate the historian minded opinions that holding back judgement on the "S" applied to it should wait for a closer inspection, but being just an owner I can put an opinion out and call B.S. about anything other than some previous owner slapping it on. (just a guess though)
     
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  8. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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  9. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thank you. That's all I needed to know.

    Thank you for sharing your general wheel/tire knowledge meanwhile.
     
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The blue on the USA car is "Blu Miura" (non-metallic) and the blue on Roy's car is "Blu Tahiti" (metallic).

    Hope that helps.
     
  11. ken qv

    ken qv Formula 3

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    Thank you Joe. I think both are winners.
     
  12. vaholtorf

    vaholtorf Formula 3
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    #11986 vaholtorf, Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
    I wonder about the non-stock looking seat trim on that blue car also And the gear shift knob....... If I didn't have proof, I would conclude that the seats were redone to an owner's custom specification and the 'S' emblem was just stuck on, especially because the shape is different from the factory "S".....Notice how the mostly vertical parts of the 'S' get narower as you go out from the center, whereas the factory's 'S' had the top part get narrower, but the bottom part gets wider.. ...I don't believe that is a factory 'S'....if appears fabricated...and incorrectly at that.....but I have seen that incorrect 'S' on some factory paperwork, however.

    I think it is good for people to be skeptical about non-stock appearing claims without rock solid proof to the contrary. And even then...........?????......For example, I have a letter from Lamborghini saying a certain DD is the last one non Anniversary one made at the factory (it is most certainly not in terms of VIN # since there are later VINs, but maybe they were made out of sequence, but I think the letter is just wrong and made to appease a customer). I also have a certificate of authenticity for the same car with a digit wrong on the VIN! So, even documentation is not 100% proof.
     
  13. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Good advice!
     
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  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #11988 joe sackey, Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    David:

    Can you tell us of your experience of refinishing your Bravos? I know you have done literally tens of thousands of miles of safe driving on them.

    My client has used a specialist in Europe to x-ray and magna-flux them, then have them refinished with special application to make them safe. More on that later. He noted that some some vintage racing F1 teams that have wheels & mag. gearboxes that contain highly-pressurized oil that are sealed by specialists and are bullet proof. I know personally that I use a firm in Northern California for sealing 288 GTO mag. bell-housings to good effect (they use an aerospace material - and the process is not particularly expensive, $500). There is a firm that specializes in repairs of Campagnolo magnesium wheels and Marchesini Forged magnesium motorcycle wheels.

    Any thoughts on this, and any links for specialists in the USA?

    This whole notion that these things will crumble like dust is just silly.
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  16. ralfabco

    ralfabco F1 World Champ
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    A Pantera specialist shop in the U.S., also does similar work. If I remember correctly, it is located in Nevada ? The shop can work on the factory Bravo wheels. I have the information buried in my e-mail folders.
     
  17. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Correct. I have that info also. They work on Campagnolo mag. wheels and do lots of original Pantera mag. wheels. Will post link later. By the way my client who caused this topic could not be happier with the original re-finished Bravos and feels safer driving with them.
     
  18. qvpower

    qvpower Formula Junior

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    #11991 qvpower, Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
    Excerpt from this site to give everyone some insight on mg and casting....

    http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=248

    This first generation of Mg wheels, although served life-times of more than 150,000 km, were taken out of operation due to lack of understanding of die cast technology, insufficient corrosion properties and the general recession in the seventies. Porsche started the development of the next generation of Mg wheels, produced by low pressure die casting using PAZ9110. Today most magnesium wheels are forged in 11983 to achieve better strength and fatigue properties. VW/Audi started with the B80 gearbox housing in 1996 a new era of drive train applications and the available range extended very much since then.

    Magnesium alloys have two major disadvantages for the use in automotive applications; they exhibit low high temperature strength and a relatively poor corrosion resistance. The major step for improving the corrosion resistance of magnesium alloys was the introduction of high purity alloys. Alloying can further improve the general corrosion behavior, but it does not change galvanic corrosion problems if magnesium is in contact with another metal and an electrolyte. The galvanic corrosion problem can only be solved by proper coating systems.

    Beside the galvanic corrosion problems related with magnesium the low temperature strength is another serious problem, limiting the use of magnesium especially for power train applications. The use for transmission cases and engine blocks requires temperature stability up to 175°C.

    Additionally the widespread use of magnesium and its alloys in transportation industry is limited by some poor property profiles. Low creep resistance, high coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE), low Young’s modulus, insufficient ductility and crash energy consumption in car body structures, low fatigue stability, low corrosion and wear resistance are deficits which have to overcome by further alloy and/or process developments.

    Anyone know a trivia about why the original bravos are rough?

    The very fact that these wheels have to be refinished and "fixed" is because inherently the wheels dont hold up well. Yes putting on extra coating will ensure better durability... but does not guarantee anything.... , a forged aluminum or even magnesium will yield better durability than sand cast mg wheels... Would be better to have some one cnc out of forged billet to achieve lighter weight and better safety...
     
  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Moving right along, in the USA there are several sources to properly refurbish the original mag. Bravos for road use.

    But in the UK TPCS stands above the rest:
    http://tpcs-magnesium-refurbs.co.uk/...el-gallery.php
    They are very experienced and have a great track record.

    The place Ralfabco mentioned in Nevada escapes me, but the source based in Georgia has refurbished literally thousands of Pantera mag. wheels without failures.
    http://www.wheelwizard.com/contact.htm
    They check the wheel for corrosion, cracks, run-out and alignment. They have some very special equipment and systems for repairing damaged wheels. After it is determined that the wheel can be repaired, the paint is removed from the outside face by very carefully media blasting and chemical striping. Magnesium can be easily damaged by the media so they are very careful how they use the media on the wheel. Chemical stripping is the primary way that the old point is removed. Powder coat paint does not adhere very well or bridge across the very porous magnesium so special steps must be taken to prepare the wheel for the powder coating. First the wheel is heated in the oven to hopefully release any gassing that might take place after the paint is applied. After the wheel cools a special primer is used that adheres well to the magnesium and seals and fills the porous surface. The primer is then sanded to prep it for the color. In order to replicate the original paint, they use a special wheel paint for the color coat of the wheel. This provides a great metallic color base that adheres well to the primer and to the wheel surface. After the color coat is applied it is cured under heat lamps. And, Bravo!.

    Another mag. wheel specialist source is:
    Aircraft Services Incorporated
    Ste 10
    9208 James Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55431
    (952) 888-4641‎
     
  20. qvpower

    qvpower Formula Junior

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    #11993 qvpower, Feb 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yep bascially the difference between a refinished mag wheel and non refinished is putting in primer to fill in the pore prone magnesium so that the primer can prevent possible leakage. The primer and paint are what keeps that wheel sound and air tight... sounds about right...lol.

    On a side note, here is a wheel project that is probably worlds away from the antiquated sand casting techology...
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  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #11994 joe sackey, Feb 21, 2012
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    Vintage racers still use magnesium wheels on the racetrack, and their refurbishment for safe use involves a bit more than "putting in primer" as you are unfortunately best able describe it. Blasting, cleaning, crack-testing & Chromate coating are only a part of the process for wheels that are great to begin with.

    If there are processes today that are good enough for vintage racing, they are good enough for a Countach on the road.

    Not everyone wants to discard their magnesium wheels (or other magnesium components) in favor of the latest technology. This is something you appear to be having difficulty grasping, because this discussion is simply about the preservation, refurbishment and use of the original Bravo wheels. The people I am getting e-mails from are not in favor of swapping wheels for any other type of wheel, old or new. Some people simply want to preserve what they already have and make it usable, even if its outmoded technology. They simply want to find the very best way to refurbish & continue to use their Bravo wheels. Clearly, there are sufficient specialty resources available today to facilitate this.

    Read the section on Restoring classic racing wheels
    http://www.roadsters.com/wheels/#Halibrand

    There are literally dozens & dozens of vintage racing cars running original mag. wheels (& other components) that have been treated to make them safe for racing. Again, with that in mind, making mag. wheels safe for the street is not rocket science.

    Here are a few examples of Vintage racing cars using mag. wheels & components.
    http://www.britishracecar.com/BillThumel-Lola-T70.htm
    http://www.britishracecar.com/EricHaga-Lola-T190.htm

    As regards your carbon fiber "wheel project that is probably worlds away" from mag. wheel technology, I think they will look fabulous on your Countach and set off those aftermarket side-skirts nicely.
    In fact, whilst you're at it, why not go all the way and swap out the antiquated aluminum bodywork for a carbon fiber shell too? Let us know how you get on with all that...
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  22. qvpower

    qvpower Formula Junior

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    Wow Joe, took you a good part of today to do all that research to get back onto your thread...lol. The fact is that those cars you highlighted are race cars with limited heat cycles due to the frequency of use... To compare a race car and say if its good enough for a race its good enough for the road is just plain ignorance... Every time a car gets up to speed, heat builds on the wheel and tire... Then every time a car is parked, it cools down... The heat cycles for a road car vs a race car are just not the same... The conditions that a race car is subjected to are not the same... These all play a huge part in terms of the longevity of any seal, paint coating... Having a constant variances of hot and cold temps actually can potentially speed up seal degradation... I say this because this principle holds true even for multipiece wheels.. I could even remember that one german murcie with aftermarket wheels crashed and the owner was suing Lamborghini... But the most possible thing was that the seal keeping the air gave, causing a sudden loss in pressure and control...

    Ultimately my point of highlighting the faults of magnesium wheels is to let owners know of the potential dangers, not necessarily to have them throw them away... but to give them info and possibly consider alternatives like a traditional aluminum wheel from a late model ct for normal use and use magnesium bravos for show and display.. But, Im sure everyone can now see that it seems though like youre coming back at this like, its not crap because I say its not crap... and what I say is the final word...

    I gotta give you kudos for being a great researcher on these cars though , and being able to make deals off your research... But lets face it... not everything you say is going to be the word... There are plenty of professionals and individuals with the expertise on the forums... Its just surprising that everyone on this forum are all very cordial and actually appreciates your input and therefore tolerate your growing ego.. I know I am not the only one to have felt that way quite often.

    As to your attempt to somehow belittle my car or the projects Im involved in further exemplify what you have become... BTW, those wheels are not for the CT and Im not trying to position myself to make a buck....lol. And lastly, I bought my car from Bobileff who says those skirts are factory... So unless you are calling him a liar, then thats that...

    Anyways, to hear anything even slightly resembling a comeback from you at this point would just simply reinforce to everyone what I have just pointed out about you... So in your words.....

    Moving right along....
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Ah yes, the usual: if he stands his ground he must have an ego. BS.

    1. The skirts on your USA QV FI car are not factory. Post a pic of them here and lets discuss. We have spoken about this a long time ago. So because that's pointed out its belittling your car? Whose fault is it that they are not factory? Mine? Grow up.

    2. It is clear to anyone reading this stream of back-and-forth dialogue about the Bravo wheels that your only purpose here is to poo-poo them and tell us something we all already know - that magnesium is porous.

    3. The purpose of this stream was about the REPRO BRAVOS. I asked if you had any experience with them and you said "no". I even thanked you twice in the same posts for your contributions and made it clear the discussion was about a specific repro wheel. Perhaps that was your cue to exit this discussion but as you have done dozens of times before you inject yourself into a discussion offering nothing new other than to become an annoyance. You were relentless with a deluge of information that did nothing to assess the repro Bravos we are seeking to assess. You even suggested that perhaps my client could not tell if it was the wheels. You were arrogant & rude in suggesting that you have wheel expertise and the rest of us dont. Perhaps it is YOU who sought the final word here, and sorry, you're not getting it because no matter what you say owners of S1 cars will find ways to use their Bravo wheels safely. It is you who are wasting your time here not me (this subject is my business). I am certain Peter, David et al are not deterred one iota from using their Bravo wheels and I'm certain that some of the information revealed here will help them to use them more safely.
     
  24. roytoy2003

    roytoy2003 F1 Veteran
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    This on-going dicussion of the wheels..heck who knows..I am not an expert..I am a driver..

    BUT I have a solution...

    Since I will be taking my LP400 Periscopa down to LA, drive it up the coast to Monterrey this year, then back to Seattle via some nice 3 day back roads...I would say a total of 2000 miles or so..AND I am SURE I will hit a few 3 digit numbers..at least in Oregon east country for sure...and since mine are orginal on the car..

    Lets have all of you chip in $100 towards a death/dis-member/injury pot in my kids names..If I go bye bye due to the failure of a wheel..my kids win and we have a conclusion of REAL ROAD testing..if I survive..I still get the pot..will pay for all my overnite Tequilla Stops!!

    LOL LOL Yea, always looking to make a buck..
     
  25. qvpower

    qvpower Formula Junior

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    No! I enjoy your friendship too much to do that.:). Lol.
     
  26. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Roy: I will give you this - you DO have a sense of humor, and, your timing with it is nothing short of impeccable!
     
  27. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #12000 joe sackey, Feb 21, 2012
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