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"Court to rule on mystery of 'cloned' Ferrari"

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by QWKDTSN, Nov 24, 2006.

  1. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    237
    It is an interesting argument, however, what is history ??
    If I have something and the history is in the physcial componentary or in the story or ???
    Because if it is the physical componentry then what happens if you replace just about everything ?? is it still original ??, in the case of the maserati with just about everything bar the chassis being new I guess not, and thats why you could thrash it too death whereas an original 450S should probably be protected, used lightly and properly looked after YES/ NO
    Cheers

    Tim
     
  2. 365GTC/4

    365GTC/4 Formula 3

    Apr 7, 2005
    1,231
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    John
    I know this is an old post but don't you mean "Old Number One". That Bently won the 1929 Le Mans whereas the "Old Mother Gun" won the 1927 Le Mans? Completely different car as far as I know. See http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html

    What do you guys know about "Old Mother Gun"? I am just interested because I used to race yachts with the guy who owned "Old Mother Gun" back in 1990. Small world!
    Cheers
    John
     
  3. kvisser

    kvisser Formula 3

    Dec 11, 2004
    1,925
    Damascus, MD
    Full Name:
    Ken Visser
    Thanks for posting that article. It was a very interesting read. Reminded me of Jim's 100 page + pdf on his p3/4.
     
  4. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    11,850
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    Onno
    #29 JazzyO, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    All I know is that it's an awesome machine!

    Back on-topic - it seems the courts ruled in against the Hofer car.


    Onno
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
    Moderator

    May 15, 2003
    4,047
    The Netherlands
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    Boudewijn Berkhoff
    #30 Boudewijn, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. vroomgt

    vroomgt Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2004
    2,113
    Brisbane Australia
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    John ARBA
    #31 vroomgt, Feb 28, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
    MY mistake!

    I have read this before so yes you are correct.

    Rubin has relatives still living who I am in contact with but there is nothing more I can add....
     
  7. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2011
    752
    London, England
    Full Name:
    Alex
  8. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,883
    NZ
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    Timothy Russell
    I for one am absolutely certain the real #0818 is with Hofer.
     
  9. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Le's see if I have this right. The Hofer car is the one built from the chassis and suspension parts obtained by Egon Hofer directly from Protheroe's widow, probably not thru David Piper.These parts with the correct chassis stampings were repaired over a number of years by Edger Berney and the chassis rebuilt or restored however one wants to call it.The work was checked and approved by William Vacari in Modena. In the late 1990s a new body was created using the original body molds created for the new body on 0820. The original gearbox and the original instruments and fuel tank were installed.Hofer then won two court cases in Italy the against Violati who claimed that his 0818 was the original. The Volati car has the original engine but the rest of the car, completed in 1979, is all new.Piper had sold the original engine to Stefan Sklner who later sold it to Paul Schouwenburg as part of his collection. The engine was installed in 250LM 5899 and later removed, sold and installed in the 0818 reproduction which came to Viloti in 1986.To complicate things further there is another theory that some of the original parts went into a replica built in England, sent to America and confiscated from a drug dealer.I hope this is reasonably factual and accurate.I will look forward to comments. tongascrew
     
  10. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,513
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Dave Powers
    This refers to the 2nd car in your description, ex-David Piper etc. The convicted drug dealer was Christopher Murray of Rhode Island (who also owned 4757GT) who owned "0818" after Piper etc but before Fabrizio Violati.
     
  11. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,883
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    Timothy Russell
    Egon Hofer was famous for buying very historic but frequently damaged cars ala #0818. In this case he and the Petheroe family even had an invoice/ bill of sale/ receipt showing that indeed the vehicle (its remains) had been sold to Egon Hofer. The Violati hypothesis requires us to believe that the remains were returned to Maranello then sold back to Piper who created a vehicle out of them then it went to Christopher Murray etc. Well that's the easy version, there are a few other twists and turns as well. I personally believe the engine fitted to Violati's car is correct but I really do not believe the rest was replicated in the late 70s/ early 80s. This would likely have been done by Piper in that period, he would have had the parts, the money and the ability (his staff have built him several P cars).

    There are two entirely separate theories as to which is the original but following the first Hofer theory is a very simple one. Following the other Violati theory requires one to believe in a situation full of coincidence that would make "#0846" look like a picnic.
     
  12. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    1,955
    I am not talking of the Hofer car but over on MyCarQuest.com website there is a story about
    a racing Iso Grifo A3/C that was crashed at Sebring, broke in half, and Max Balchowsky (ol' Yaller fame) welded the stiall intact half onto another crashed Iso Grifo A3C or Bizzarrini. I ask then which SN do you use? That of the car that has the greater percentage of floorpan past 50%? Or the one you have a clearer title to? These were unitized cars basically using the Iso Rivolta floorpan,so didn' t have separate frames.

    Over in the Cobra world there are instances of guys throwing a smashed Cobra into the dumpster, someone else coming along, rescuing the unsmashed half and then building out the frame to make a complete car and making that sn the SN of the car while then someone else,hearing it was totaled, builds a new car using that same SN. We call these ones built of whole cloth "air cars."
     
  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Clear title. It is all about continuous history. If THE car at the time was repaired by welding on the second half of another car it still was just repaired.
    Pete
     
  14. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,883
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    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    #0818 is now for sale at Talacrest, I have started a new thread in the vintage ferrari market section.....

    Very interesting there is no mention of history between '66 and '85
     
  15. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2011
    752
    London, England
    Full Name:
    Alex
    #40 250P, Dec 30, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2014
    Is the court case ongoing or resolved?

    Marcel, would be very interested to hear your view if you have one and are willing to share on the Violati '0818' currently offered by Talacrest?
    Ferrari 330 P*-*For Sale At Talacrest

    First line of Talacrest listing; slightly alludes to mystery reading between the words.
    "The car we offer for sale has full red book Ferrari Classiche certification."
     
  16. tilomagnet

    tilomagnet Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2010
    292
    This would be a prime example where a dedicated (deep pocketed) collector could step up, buy the two cars, dismantle everything then re - construct one 0818 from the puzzle using all the original parts. Not sure how realistic this is with todays crazy market but I dont think the ship has sailed.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #42 Napolis, Dec 30, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2014
    Happened with DK 250 LM that was recently auctioned and Classiched.

    Classiched....


    The interesting question to me is are there are a new group of "Alternative Asset Investors" who really don't care.

    To them 0818 even though there are two of them, the aforementioned 250LM, the 250 LM that's going up in Arizona, 0828, "P4" 0858, the 250 Cuba death racer are all bargains in spite of what they really are today.

    I used to think that as long as there was FULL disclosure all was good. I now think the belief that any comp Ferrari is a blue chip alternative investment has created a new class of buyers who simply don't give a damn.

    Part of the problem is that GREAT Cars are few and far between and those who own them really don't want to sell them.

    Being able to buy Modulo directly from PF isn't something that happens every day to everyone...
     
  18. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2011
    752
    London, England
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Has Egon Hofer rebuilt a car yet from the actual 0818 chassis, suspension and other bits he bought post crash?
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Yes.
     
  20. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2011
    752
    London, England
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Test the water ;o)
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    As I haven't sold a collector car since 1972 the temp of the water means nothing to me.
     
  22. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    845
    When the market will turn, and this will happen one day, only the best cars will survive, like in real estate the best locations survive the bubble downturn. So speculators/investors can buy whatever second rate car they want, this is their risk. In the meantime they do the show for the uneducated public, the media, the brokers, the auction houses, the restorers, etc etc so everyone has a little bit of fun at the expense of others,,,but the real long term collectors who enjoy their cars will remain calm and continue to enjoy their cars ...
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    QFT (Quoted For Truth)
     
  24. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2011
    752
    London, England
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Fair enough and interesting to know. Although I was only joking.
     
  25. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    See post #34. tongascrew
     

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