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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by mechaniker, Sep 29, 2019.
Found this video on Youtube.
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Where is 0514M today?
Southward Museum NZ
Driver Ken Wharton died in this crash. I think its worth to mention it also on this thread!
I live near Southwards and have access to their files if anyone wants to know more or has any specific questions.
You are right, Walter.
I don't like it when cars involved in fatal accidents are restored, profoundly indecent in my humble view. The resurrections of the Lindner E type and the John Woolfe 917 really disturbed me. Of course there is the Henri Oreiller GTO as well....
How about 0040 M, 016 I, 0032 MT, 0078 E, 0190 ED, 0238 A, 0268 AM, 0284 AM, 0280 AM, 0294 AM, 0208, 0318 AM, 0396 AM, 0070 E, 0518 M, 0562 MD, 0512 MD, 0546 LM, 0489 SA, 0520 M, 0514 M, 0012, 0503 GT, 0690 MDTR, 0907 GT, 0748 TR, 0004, 0002, 0654 MDTR, 0357 EU, 0726 TR, 2443 GT, 2037 GT, 0606, 0812, 0824, 0830, 1561 GT, 1521 GT, 0818, 0832, etc etc etc??
The list is endless.
Yes difficult indeed and with cars from other brands in the same situation that means hundreds of them at least.
I know when I tested 0748 TR for Cavallino many years ago during a 160 mile touring rally in SOCAL Erwin Bauer was sometimes in my thoughts....
May I ask who was killed in 0812?
Is that the car Spychiger was in at Monza? Or the latino driver in the Bahamas where the fire trucks could not get to the car?
Not in but by the car. 3 spectators at Le Mans 1967.
Spychiger = 0824.
"Latino"driver was Rodrige Borges Zingg in 0832.
Thanks for your info Marcel, though in 67 only Roby Weber passed away in the Matra, do you mean this accident in 64? It had 3 spectator fatalities and Maglioli in a 275P. Nothing else is logged for that year in MM.
Yes, sorry, meant 1964. Not 1967.
Fat fingers. My apologies.
Happens to me more often than I care to admit
With al due respect to all cars and those who perished driving/racing/spectating them, but why do some people find it “difficult” to discuss or appreciate involved cars restored after the fact ?
Do many people have same difficulties with apartments/condominiums/houses/properties in/on which someone had died ?
it is somewhat weird, but "fact of life". I have some land in Oklahoma 2 people went missing 7 years ago and bodies haven't been found. doesn't keep me from still enjoying the land, it wasn't the land's fault and years before I owned it.
Actually there are two aspects: one that it is a bit creepy and I don't think between two identical cars at equal price anyone would pick the one that had a fatality in it, same for a house or a piece of land as Rob mentioned.
The second aspect which I failed to clarify as I am a bit overworked right now is when a car is recreated out of nothing. Case in point the John Woolfe 917 which was destroyed and broke in half in the Le Mans 1969 lap one crash. Google John Woolfe crash and there are numerous photos in which you clearly see the car destroyed and split in two. Then someone decided to recreate the car out of nothing even buying supposedly the number plate of the car from his family and rebuilt it. It has since been bought by a major collector. He bought a replica built for money ignoring the loss of life. To me it is indecent but I understand to each his own. Here this article in Porsche's official media newsroom just states the car rolled....though they do recognize that just because it has the chassis plate does not make it the car Wolfe raced that day.
I totally agree, its like a house where a serious murder has recently occured, for most buyers that is a slightly extraneous piece of information but for anyone, even those not superstitious it would hamper your buying decision. Same thing for a car which killed its driver, its not good karma. I would put it up there with a car owned by Hitler or someone equally notorious as a seriously limiting factor. As for the second narrative, recreating a car that has been destroyed in a fatal accident, I concur. The only path that is anything other than fraudulent is when the rebuild process is made public and the car is then promoted as a replica/ recreation with x original parts. Unfortunately the Woolfe car is the latest of almost 10 917s that have been built in recent times, all eventually claimed to be be built using the original (insert major part such as chassis) which was found in (insert exotic destination) or some such. The same goes for so many cars that are getting hawked all the time having clearly been absolutely, totally destroyed, the 1955 Le Mans winning D-Type is an excellent example, ditto the 1951 Le Mans winning C-Type, Ferrari 290MM #0606 and 330P3/4 #0846 are two more famous examples, the 1927 Le Mans winning Bentley at Bonhams recently and so on and so forth. Perhaps I should give up my day job and become a car dealer.
Thank you both for replying.
Mr. Sonnery, your explanation though seems to suggest more about the indecency of the idea recreating destroyed vehicle around its VIN than someone having died in it in a racing incident.
As for myself, if I had to choose between two similar vehicles (or any other “property”), knowledge of someone having died in (or on) one, wouldn’t affect my decision. Only its current condition, along with service/restoration history* and my ability to afford it would matter, nothing else.
Previous “Celebrity” (good or bad) ownership wouldn’t make any difference either.
*This of course eliminates recreations/replicas/etc as I couldn’t see myself owning, let alone driving in public anything so pretentious.
Timmy thank you +1000.
Timo just call me Marc
We all have our views based on who we are, different backgrounds etc etc. Having lived in both the old and new worlds I appreciate that by necessity pragmatism rules in the newer countries USA, Australia, New
Zealand etc compared to slower, romantic perhaps stuffy but a little wiser old Europe here. Neither is better, they are just different.
Boy do I have a Juicy anecdote relevant to your post I was just telling that one ten days ago, but it will be for tomorrow, have to wake up very early.
Marc, having grown up in "stuffy"(???) old Europe and being known as a quite old fashioned ("romantic"?) in some circles , I do see your point, but my life experiences (on both continents) have taught me to approach life and world we live in rather pragmatically.
I like all cars incl. replicas it just does my head in when you read an advert that extols a car as being original when its little better than a fake. Look at the Lancia D50s racing around the traps, the Fiat Beast of Turin or most of the cars at the Goodwood revival, they are awesome and to any extent that matters real. Far better than wrecking a one off original.