Crosswind Landings For Private License | FerrariChat

Crosswind Landings For Private License

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by exclusive29, Feb 3, 2008.

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  1. exclusive29

    exclusive29 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2008
    9
    Hey guys..
    Am in Florida and working to get my Private Pilot License..I dont have any such problems with any maneuvers but i just dont seem to get a hang of Crosswind landings..i practised them for almost 4-5 hours now but its not working..any suggestions on how can i perform them?
    any help would be appreciated..
    Thanks
     
  2. airfoil

    airfoil Karting

    Feb 1, 2008
    50
    One: Slip, lining up your path with the centerline, and straighten the aircraft
    just prior to touchdown, or

    Two: Crab, using rudder to align with centerline prior to touchdown.

    Remember to deflect ailerons properly after touchdown, with appropriate rudder input to counter Yaw. (With nosewheel off runway, neutral Rudder
    after nosewheel chirps.)

    Armed with this description, just have your CFI take you through a few times. If you are like me, your Butt has a better memory than your Brain.
     
  3. exclusive29

    exclusive29 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2008
    9
    thanks for your reply...
    i ve been working on that..i guess i start messing it up on the final itself...am also confused on how to lower your speed on the final,my CFI told me not to raise the pitch above the horizon while descending but then i dont see any other way to lower it,if i power back i start losing altitude and in crosswinds its not safe to fly at low RPMS..

    CLIFFS:
    -Mess up at final
    -CFI told not to raise pitch above horizon
    -only way to drop speed is by reducing power which loses the necessary altitude
    -not safe to fly at low RPMS when its windy
    PS( i got around 27hours in Cessna 152 )
     
  4. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner Social Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2000
    63,968
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    Now if you have enough winds to worry about the crosswinds, then they are usually not consistent and variable. However, assuming the x-wind is half way stable you should be able to put the correct amount of aileron in and line up straight with rudder and fly it all the way down final to touch down. Even if the winds are bouncing you I think the best method as you just make small corrections from the stabilized approach. Same as a perfect setup with no x-wind, plane is trimmed out and you would only need to touch the controls at flare. X-wind landing is the same if you have the right amount of aileron and rudder to keep from side loaded touch down, then just ride it all the way down final and flare it.
     
  5. airfoil

    airfoil Karting

    Feb 1, 2008
    50
    Attitude controls airspeed, Throttle controls altitude. A slip is permissible with full flaps in a C-152. You should be able to dive at the runway with
    cross controls (slip) and full flap, still carrying ample power, and 50-60
    knots. I like cross controls in a crosswind, all that drag allows power and a
    fairly slow airspeed, a good feeling to carry down final. Practice at altitude
    if you're more comfortable there. Inputs are less immediate. Always check any advice you get with your Instructor first.
     
  6. exclusive29

    exclusive29 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2008
    9
    thanks for your help again..
    i went through your replies in depth..i got another 2 days before i get to practise my X-wind landings and plan to study on this topic in details till then..
    If you guys got some useful material that i can go through please send me the links or something..
    i ll definetely post here after i get to practise them the next time...
    till then ve a great time and fly safe...peace
     
  7. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner Social Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2000
    63,968
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    This time of year our local airport has consistent west x-winds. The chief instructor wasn't happy with the company planes that he was watching land, so made it mandatory for all renters to read a 5 page article on x-wind landings. I will find out the source.

    Fundamentals are being stabilized so you aren't so busy on the controls and not landing crooked for side loads. I think also error on having a couple extra knots.
     
  8. exclusive29

    exclusive29 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2008
    9
    yup..that article would be of great help to me....m gonna go through my Jeppeson Private Pilot stuff on crosswind landings for a few days in depth..
    tc
     
  9. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,375
    ATL/CHS/MIA
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    Jason
    Practice for 6 or 7 more hours.

    That's the only way I learned anything in this flying game. Do it over and over.
     
  10. planeflyr

    planeflyr Karting

    May 27, 2006
    174
    A forward slip is used for crosswind control during landing. As we all have learned (or will learn in the case of students) it is bad technique and may be quite dangerous to land an aircraft with the nose pointed in any direction other than straight down the runway and with the aircraft moving in any other direction other than straight down the runway. This places extreme loads on the landing gear and make for controllability problems at touchdown.

    Crosswinds have the tendency to blow the aircraft sideways across the runway when the aircraft's longitudinal axis is aligned with the runway unless measures are taken to prevent the lateral motion.

    One way to arrest lateral motionis to "crab" into the wind at which point the aircraft is moving down the centerline although the nose is pointed into the crosswind. This will never do as you can't land that way.

    The technique of keeping the drift in check and keeping the nose pointed down the centerline is to apply aileron INTO the wind as in a turn and apply OPPOSITE rudder to arrest the turn. This cross control is a slip! It is what is called the forward slip because the aircraft is moving forwart to the RUNWAY although sideways to the relative (cross)wind The view out the windscreen is straight ahead and upwind wing is low vs. the downwind wing. POWER WILL NEED TO BE APPLIED TO ARREST THE INCREASED SINK RATE AS A RESULT OF THE INCREASED DRAG PRODUCED BY THE SLIP.

    This presents some touchdown issues as well.

    It will be necessary to land the aircraft in this attitude which is contrary to the prevelant picture of wings level flight. It can be a disturbing sight picture for students and the tendency is to neutralize the aileron and rudder. This will immediately cause the aircraft to drift again, a bad situation.

    No, one must fight the urge to do so and land with the upwind main landing gear wheel FIRST. Then lower the downwind main landing gear wheel. Only then can you neutralize the rudder (as in most light aircraft it is either connected to the nosewheel of tailwheel) and then lower the nosewheel to the runway. If you do not neutralize the rudder and hence the nosewheel, you will be rewarded by a pronounced "lurch" sideways and place additional stresses on the nosewheel and risk loss of control. As the aircraft slows, keep the aileron deflected into the wind to aid control and to prevent the wind from "lifting" a wing. It may be necessary to increase deflection of both aileron and rudder or keep power up to provide additional airflow over the control surfaces as the situation warrants. This is dynamic maneuvering at its best.

    Most experienced pilots use a combination of the various techniques to effect a crosswind landing.

    One technique is to crab on final to the moment before touchdown and then "kick" the rudder to align the aircraft's nose and longitudinal axis with the runway. It is a favorite of airline pilots.

    Comments invited.

    Planeflyr.
     
  11. gamester

    gamester Rookie

    Nov 27, 2003
    17
    Twin Falls, Idaho
    Full Name:
    Erik Jonsson
    If you are flying an Ercoupe without rudder pedals- you land into the wind with the crab- as you can not straighten the plane to parallel the runway centerline. The landing gear in an Ercoupe is built strong enough to take the landing side load and upon touchdown it nearly instantly straightens the nose down the centerline and then you lower the nose. I will attempt to locate the video from FlaBob showing a crosswindy day.
     
  12. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    Good summary
    Just want to also emphasize there is no one way for all planes in all conditions, but usually a combo of sorts.
    Fly the plane.
     
  13. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
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    Robert Parks
    Going back to the stone ages, I remember when on final setting up a crab and an aileron into the wind and adjusting the inputs as necessary to keep lined up on the runway. Keep the crab and the up-wind wing down until flare and get the nose aligned with the centerline while still holding the up-wind wing down, and make a normal landing. Keep the feet awake and concentrate on the target at the end of the runway. When the airspeed gets down to, say, 40MPH....THEN GROUND LOOP.
     
  14. exclusive29

    exclusive29 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2008
    9
    i flew my plane in strong X-winds yesterday and it was much improved than before..my instructor was much relaxed after watching me do them..although i need some more work right after touchdown in the rollout phase..i cant keep my plane straight ,ie,aligned with the centerline...
    thx
     
  15. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
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    Robert Parks
    Nishant, I doubt if they train deep stalls anymore but I had to do them daily until I could control the the direction airplane with rudder only and it sharpened my sensitivity in controlling the airplane on rollout. They called them "rudder exercise stalls". At altitude, the airplane was pulled up into a full stall, stick in the gut and then walked down , keeping the nose straight with the rudder, the only operative control surface since the ailerons are stalled and you have the elevators full up. It is a great way to learn the use of the rudder and it will hone the ability to stay straight. Of course, if you don't get on the rudder quickly and aggressively during the exercises, the airplane will spin and that's why you learn spin recovery. Sounds like you're doing a pretty good job.
    Switches
     
  16. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner Social Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2000
    63,968
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    Is this what you call a 'falling leaf' or is that something else?
     
  17. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    This isn't a falling leaf because the nose must fall straight ahead in the stall. In a falling leaf, the airplane falls off in a stall to one side and the pilot them performs the same movement in the opposite direction, falling from right to left as it descends. That's a rough description, anyway. I saw this done beautifully at Abottsford one afternoon by an RCAF pilot flying an Avro 504K. It was interesting to see the burst of castor oil and exhaust when he blipped the engine to keep it clear.
     
  18. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
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    Robert Parks
    I got to thinking about my partner and I practicing at various times doing one-wheel-wheelies and keeping the wing down as long as practical. We never had any trouble with X-winds. We flew locally in the rain and bad weather to stay sharp on reading terrain and the changes in weather patterns. But you guys who get their instrument ratings, get the hat tipped from me. That's the real way to do it.
    Switches
     
  19. airfoil

    airfoil Karting

    Feb 1, 2008
    50
    Switches, you say you "set up a crab" on final, and stay "lined up" on the runway, with upwind wing down. Aren't you describing the famous "Crab Slip"?
    I'm confused.
     
  20. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
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    Robert Parks
    I picture an approach that I made many times. Let's say that the wind is coming from the right and to stay lined up with the runway I have to feed in right rudder so that my track is aligned with the runway. The crosswind is trying to lift the upwind wing so I feed in right aileron to stay level or even a little down wing. I hold that set up and adjust rudder and aileron to stay aligned and hold it until I'm over the fence then get the nose lined up in small increments. Keep the upwind wing down, keep the nose aligned with the centerline and make the necessary rudder inputs to keep it that way and effect a flare. Land on the upwind main and plant the nose and keep it straight while you are still carrying some upwind aileron. I don't know if I have explained this correctly for a tricycle geared airplane. I have done it many times and I hate the trikes for this reason. They stink in a crosswind situation and many times you have to plant it when you are still crabbing and drifting. A tail dragger is much easier, keep the upwind wing down, plant it on the upwind main, give it some forward stick, keep the nose aligned, keep the wing down, and stay with it until you slow down. THEN GROUND LOOP IT. I guess I shouldn't say that but I saw this a couple of times in the 40's and it still makes me laugh.
    We had a guy get checked out in a Stearman and he went into a ground loop and tried the ol' saw of adding opposite rudder and power. He ground down the aileron and wing tip to almost nothing. We spent a week fixing it and he was the first one to rent the airplane and when he landed he did the same damn thing.
     
  21. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    I was over anxious once and felt I had to land due to an oncoming rain, so I made the mistake of landing in the leading squall line instead of waiting 5 - 10 minutes for it to pass the field with just the following rain.

    Wing down low, lining up with rudder, gear down, tailwheel locked into steering the J-bird came across the fence at a perfect 90 mph. Pull the throttle, raise the nose while kicking rudder to a pretty acceptable 3 point plant tracking south down the Milton T (now Peter Prince) Field - the same field my plane landed hundreds of time as a trainer when the plane and the field still belonged to the Navy.

    As with any SNJ tailwheel landing, now it gets interesting. While the tail is up, the rudder still has a good bit of yaw authority. In the T-6/SNJ, once the tail in down the flaps negate most of that aerodynamic steering, progressively worse as you slow, and you are left with a 12" smooth tail wheel in the back and your 1940s Studebaker drum brakes on the mains for suggesting lateral direction to 5500 pounds of plane.

    The magic landing ground speed in a T-6 is about 35 - 40 mph: the rear wheel and brakes have reduced authority over the moving mass of the plane at that speed and the rudder has by then lost enough airflow around it to do much, especially if blocked by the full span Navy flaps. With the howling gusting wind and rain across the previously dry runway and slick tailwheel, the plane entered this transition zone -- the direct cross on the big flat exposed rudder was more than the 12" doughnut in the back could do, so whoopsiedoodle! - around we go at about 35 mph. Wing tip did not touch the ground and the plane came to a stop on the runway after 360 degree spin to the left. So, after a big 'whew!' and sitting there a minute to get collected, I calmly taxied back to my hangar with the only damage being my pride.

    Of course, the FBO owner, a very high time (great guy) retired Colonel A-1 Skyraider pilot from Vietnam came on Unicom:"Hey - could you go back and do that again?"

    Smart ass.
     
  22. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Great story, Russ. Like they say about flying Stearmans or maybe T-6's, every pilot has ground looped them or they are going to ground loop them.
    My ground looping demonstration in a Stearman occurred right after my instructor got out of the airplane to turn me loose. I applied power to smartly move on to the runway and failed to notice that the tailwheel was popped out of the detent and was 90 Deg to the centerline of the airplane. I then proceeded to go round and round in front of my instructor who stood there grimacing with a look of biting into a green lemon.
    I went on to put a few hours in the airplane and grew to love it like no other.

    I don't know what happened to a post that I made this morning but it never made it. So I will try again.
    I made mention of twitchy flying and related a rather odd display of ham-fistedness when a P-51 pilot took his mother up for her first airplane ride after the war ( the big one in the 40's ). He rented a Cub and the airport owner elected not to give him a check ride since he was a P-51 pilot.
    The take off was all over the strip and from the ground we could see the Cub flying in a rather jerky mode. The landing was attempted by using the P-51 style wheelie and the Cub went into a jack rabbitting sequence off into the bushes off the runway where it was captured by the brush. No injuries to the airplane or its occupants but the point was made that one MUST fly an airplane the way IT has to be flown and with gentle and knowlegable inputs. The CUB is looked at as a baby carriage airplane but it will teach you more about flying than any of the current crop of trainers. It makes you put in ALL of the correct and properly balanced controls into what you must do to effect a proper maneuver. My oldest son flies his Cub almost every day to stay sharp and he has thousands of airline time.
     

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